The Second US Presidential Debate - Live
- 8 Oct 08, 02:03 AM GMT
NASHVILLE: These were my thoughts on the second McCain-Obama debate, jotted down as it unfolded:
2132: On verbiage - as S Palin would put it - Obama leads for sure; he repeated less and had some good lines. McCain seems angry and repeats lines from previous debates. So no disasters for either candidate but Obama edges it - I cannot see how the McCain performance enthuses the middle ground.
2129: A couple of general points about body-language: I thought McCain looked pretty good once he stopped prowling. He is lean and responsive. Obama is cool and tall but not so quickly responsive. Neither really engaged with the audience, partly because the rules did not allow it. McCain is back on whatever drugs lead you to say "my friend" every two minutes. They will be confiscated before next week. Obama cannot seem to begin an answer with a snappy yes or no or maybe - he has to change gears.
2119: Obama is getting McCain cross now - with another jab at his bomb bomb bomb Iran song. McCain tries a defence - it was a joke with a friend. He knows how to get Osama Bin Laden but he won't tell us how.
2116: Brilliant question from the audience on Pakistan - to pursue or not to pursue. Obama says he would. McCain, oddly, is making a different case. He may well be right (Obama seems not to realise what would happen in Pakistan) but it is dangerous for him. He sounds soft on terrorists, frankly. God knows what will happen if Sarah Palin finds out.
2111: Obama ignores a question about the effects of the economic downturn on US military power and hits McCain on Iraq. Brokaw asks a good question on the use of force when there are no national security issues at stake. Obama makes the case for intervention. But then unmakes it - the allies must do it as well. McCain agrees, pretty much.
2100: Interesting debate now on health with the fundamental issue of government intrusion. McCain is still in the anti-government mold, but Obama points out where he believes regulation works - in respect of insurance companies, for instance. I wonder whether recent events will affect the balance of view on this among viewers and voters...
2059: McCain does not answer either. The answer is that healthcare in America is a mess. Obama now says health is a right - McCain says it's a responsibility.
2054: To the question "Do you believe health care should be treated as a commodity" Obama fails miserably to connect. He does not say yes or no. He merely wanders into a stump speech take on his proposals. He is no Bill Clinton. He is no George Bush, frankly. YES OR NO!!
2053: Bush and Cheney! McCain mentions them with contempt. Contempt he must truly feel.
2047: The reply to the question about how to create new energy technology gives Obama a good line - that for 30 years Washington has done nothing. For 26 McCain has been there. Not really fair - he has tried, but quite a good line.
2046: McCain does repeat himself - he is on about Reagan and Tip O'Neil for the second time. He manages to avoid the appalling "Miss Congeniality" joke. But his basic message on tax is tough - he looks like a cutter but Obama not so much.
2043: Obama is on the attack on tax now - defending his tax proposals. Clinton (Bill) would have done a touchy-feely job here - who among you earns over 250 grand? etc. Obama prefers to lecture.
2040: McCain sounds angry - as some thought he had to. He talks of Senator Obama's tax secret that you don't know! But the tax issue is important and I suspect he is convincing to some - Obama also senses it and tries to come back but is steamrollered by Brokaw.
2038: Obama has a good line with McCain's tax cuts benefiting CEOs - who have gone from heroes to zeros in modern US iconography.
2033: Obama knows how much petrol (gas) is in Nashville. Interesting that he puts energy above health as a priority - he would not have done that before gas got so pricey.
2032: To the question: "What will you sacrifice?" McCain talks about cutting government programmes and Obama talks about cutting energy use. This is a clear difference and comes to the fore because the question was sharply focused.
2029: McCain is on the attack again - does this work? He is listing Obama's faults. Including millions of dollars for an overhead projector for an Illinois project! Convincing to those who don't think much of Obama, but I am not sure this gets to floating voters....
2026: I think McCain may be getting too close. He has a tendency to go up to the audience and prowl like a lion.
2021: McCain is on a Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac attack - suggesting Obama and the Democrats let the two institutions go on a spending spree. This is a reasonable line, I think - it points out that much of the deregulation objected to by the Democrats (now) was actually supported by them at the time. Obama hits back with the deregulation on Wall St - and McCain's backing for it. And a good line - you're not interested in politicians pointing fingers.
2010: Obama gets it - he has no answer (it would be odd to name someone right now for either candidate) but he talks of the qualities the person will need.
2009: Oh gosh a weird answer from McCain to the question - who will your treasury secretary be? Not you, he shoots back. It sounds odd.
2008: Obama is up and running with a smooth riff on the economy - a populist swipe at some executives who have already misbehaved with taxpayer money.
2005: My great hope as the questions begin is that ordinary people are slightly better questioners than the first two utterly hopeless overpaid "moderators".
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Nukes before wind?
telling
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As I gather they used to say: "Where's the beef?"
There's no real substance from either of them.
Doesn't McCain sound nice and uncly? Aah. Sweet.
But it's all fantasy reassurance from the pair of them: everybody's going to be OK, the American Dream's intact. . .they're both inhabiting cloud cuckoo land.
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Obama doesn't sound very fluent to me in his responses. He's obviously much better with a prepared speech. Disappointing.
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If this debate is all about the economy then its goodbye john !
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
McCain is talking about off-shore drilling to bridge the gap... is he talking about the Bridge to Nowhere?
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geezer alert ! doddering responses and grandiose solutions ie we can solve all the problems all at once ! We are Americans!
la la la what blather
If he call someone his friend again, I'm gonna cry
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McCain is 'my friend'-ing again. At least the candidates are better at actually answering the questions. Yay for Tom Brokaw for forcing answers and time constraints!
I like Obama's responses better. He seems to be focused on the issues a lot more than McCain. McCain gets hung up on voting record, earmarks, etc...
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In a word B - 0 - R - I - N - G - !
From what I have seen in the last 50 minutes, it's not going to sway anyone to McCain. If he was so brilliant during the last two decades, why are we in such a mess no?
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Now dear John wants too drill and build more nuke plants , at least Obama is prepared too invest in clean coal and other green options , Republicans a subsidery of the oil companies .
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They both remind me of King Lear: "I shall do such things . . ."
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"Bush missed an opportunity when he said to Americans: "Go out and shop." Anyone know what is Obama talking about? "
yes, why don't you?
Bush did nothing to mobilize public opinion to accept the sacrifices that war implies ? the first thing a leader would do. Tax cuts could go ahead as planned, and energy saving was dismissed out of hand. "Go shopping" was the administration's message.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2003/01/14/edspiers_ed3_.php
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Obama tells the them they are a wealthy nation , please correct me are they not in the red for a few trillion dollars ....
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Missrepublican:
I suggest you watch Keith Olbermann's latest countdown if you want to understand why Obama's "friends" aren't problematic, and why McCain and Palin are hypocrites when they don't take a look at their own friends.
Oh and in other news, McCain just "Myfriended" again twice! For gods sakes...
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Anybody doing a "My friends" count? It is so irritating now . . .
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The blog comment regarding healthcare - okay, Obama maybe could have been a bit more cheerful, maybe thrown the audience a wink, even, but the content of his answer, and his response to the follow up, show he UNDERSTANDS how dismal the system is here.
McCain's plans for healthcare would basically throw consumers to the wolves. It would ruin the barely functioning system we have of employer funded healthcare.
He dislikes mandates? For god's sake - it is only because of mandates that insurers agree to cover maternity, cover certain preventive procedures (oh, meaningless ones like cancer screens).
I honestly hope people here in the states were listening carefully to that answer.
A tax credit for a measley $5000 would not pay for the poor coverage my husband and I have through our employer.
Because he had the termerity to actually have, and recover, from a serious illness, my husband, if he found someone in the (ho ho ho) free market willing to cover him, would probably spend that much on premium alone for 3 months coverage.
I work in health insurance. I'm not kidding. McCain's policy would be a disaster for people, but the insurance companies would need bigger rakes to get all the cash.
Just like the banks and the traders...
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So one doesn't mind bombing Pakistan; the other wants to force the Russian Bear into a cold-war corner . . .Both want to be tough on Russia and Iran. . .If Israel is involved, forget the UN and every other country . . The future looks good, doesn't it?
As far as foreign policy goes, they are both basically locked into the same logic as the Bush-Cheney axis. As you can hear from their response about Iran. They both show how deeply some of the propaganda over the last eight years has become endemic.
The Guardian warned a long time ago that the Europeans were wrong if they thought Obama would really change American foreign policy, and I thought they were right then, and I fear they are still.
But it will all go down well with a lot of the electorate, won't it?
Frankly, I feel thoroughly depressed after all that.
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John McCain has just repeated that Obama has not acknowledged that the "the surge" has worked. If my memory is correct, that is not what Mr Obama said to Bill O'Reilly - he conceded that there was a measure of success. Mischaracterising Mr Obama's words does not assist him.
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Predictably, McCain was at his best once the topic shifted to foreign affairs, but it seemed to me that Obama better answered the questions about what the bail-out means to the man in the (main) street, and how he would fix the crisis. Surely this is more important to most people at this stage?
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#12 - milesbetweenus
Yeah, I vaguely remember that Bush asked us to go out and shop when the economy tumbled in 2001. I don't remember his exact words, but that was his solution to the economic wobble of 2001 when things plummeted after 9/11.
It didn't really boost my confidence.... Kind of like when our oil went up.. his solution was to go to the Saudi's, hat it hand, and say "uh, we ran out of gas.. can you make some more for us?" Not exactly the response I was hoping for from our president.
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I felt Obama was not at his best tonight but he still seem more presidential and ready for the challenges ahead. It sure looks like time is running out on McCain.
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Obama strains to present himself as a reasonable, yea conservative, fellow. The contrast between this and his messianic mode really create a dissonance in my mind.
Who IS this man? Who and what will he be tomorrow or the next day? He speaks in different dialects of English, depending upon the audience. Tonight, he was using his Harvard Yard version of English.
He keeps heading back to a script, talking over or past his questioners, and has to try to not act condescending to Sen. McCain.
He really, really danced on the question about Israel, and I fear when push comes to shove, he'll leave the Israelis to their fate.
McCain's the same guy tonight as he is other times--certainly not exciting, but we don't NEED exciting. We need competent and clear-headed, and a person with one integrated persona and personality, who speaks the same version of the language to everyone.
This really really matters, because the job will not allow for the kind of torturous parsing that the Clintons employed on a daily basis in the 1990's.
He was definitely not my first choice in the primaries, and I have a list of 'if only's' about the outcome of the GOP primaries.
But given the choice I have, I still have to go for McCain. We need a grown-up in the office, and BHO just doesn't qualify.
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mccain limped very badly every time he moved around the stage and that cannot be helpful on the age and health issues
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All,
My posts are limited these days, times are hard and I have a number of demands that are tieing up most of my waking hours.
That said, I have a few minutes to say something serious.
Michelle looked hot.
Happy Sam
PS Be back when I can
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Anyone else think McCain came off as a jerk? That little dig about not getting a number on health care fines ticked me off.
And the Israel question was ridiculous. Of course they're not going to wait for UN approval. If either candidate came off as not 100% behind Israel, they would lose the election.
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will mccain's incredibly Democratic proposal for the government to rewite mortgage terms had to have the base SCREAMING at the televisin for him to shut up and oh btw in the bailout bill the Dems proposed to give bankruptcy judges the power to do this and the House Republicans killed it
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Obama says 'yo' and 'uh' a lot, but seemed to be more focused on issues.
McCain a bit heavy on 'record' and cheesy populism.
Still having a hard time looking his opponent in the eye.
Having to walk around made him look even older than he is.
Let's face a tough fact : Obama being black might be a disadvantage, but McCain is a crippled geezer.
You heard right, crippled; alleged war hero or not, he looks, well, disabled when he moves.
How does that possibly influence the voters ? No, seriously.
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There will be a lot of talk tomorrow about who "won" the "debate." I can hardly wait for the exciting news. Meanwhile I used the debate time to read an Evanovich book. There was no Tina Fey on tonight and I needed humor to sustain me.
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18. Good day, David_C
You are correct that Obama apprehensively admitted to the surge's success, but has never repeated that line of thinking since that interview. O'Reilly caught him on that one and McCain is simply trying his best to politicize that point.
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17. Hello british-ish and good day.
What part of US foreign policy did the Guardian believe needed to be changed?
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16: skintodd,
I can't quote it exactly, but the BBC Radio 5 guys have just mnentioned it, and it raised my eyebrows a bit. McCain said something to the effect that the current standard of benefits the middle class in America has couldn't be maintained because of the economic situation.
That's pretty fundamental, isn't it? That's health care, pensions, help for the unemployed and disabled, foodstamps, an awful lot of things, isn't it? And I gather those 'benefits' aren't exactly generous for the not-so-well-off as it is. (I hadn't realised until it was explained tonight that the American 'middle class' actually comprises a lot of what we would call 'working class'. Still -- I know it's old-fashioned.)
I presume all that would be replaced by that 3000 dollar handout, the 5000 dollar contribution to health care (go a long way that in the US, won't it? If I've got that the right way round) and no tax cuts.
Very reminiscent of Reaganomics, I thought. I presume that the only reason Obama let that pass is because he daren't talk about cuts in services or tax increases now he's ahead in the polls.
"My hero is Teddy Roosevelt." The president who assisted the decline of several wildlife species . . .
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20. Josephina,
That line in 2001 was one of the may 'stupidisms' that Bush was responsible for.
Though, he didn't actually go to the Saudi's for increased production. He went to the Congress for support on a new drilling policy. Which the Demos quickly torpedoed.
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In regard to "hot pursuit" in Pakistan:
The airstrikes into Pakistan's territory are counterproductive to efforts against terrorism. It is not worth killing even Bin Laden himself if it turns the people of the region against us. Couter-Insurgency is never about any one man.
Furthermore, its a flagrant violation of Pakistan's sovereignity to attack in their territory without their permission, a pretty poor way to treat an ally.
Obama is dead wrong in this regard.
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17, british-ish:
So one doesn't mind bombing Pakistan; the other wants to force the Russian Bear into a cold-war corner . . .Both want to be tough on Russia and Iran. . .If Israel is involved, forget the UN and every other country . . The future looks good, doesn't it?
The Guardian warned a long time ago that the Europeans were wrong if they thought Obama would really change American foreign policy, and I thought they were right then, and I fear they are still.
But it will all go down well with a lot of the electorate, won't it?
_____
Don't give up hope yet, not all is lost.
As you said, a tough stance goes down well with the electorate, and might be crucial for either candidate to succeed in a country like that.
Obama has since early in his campaign demanded more cooperation from Europe re. foreign politics, it's never been a secret and was widely discussed in the media.
After the elections, Realpolitik will rear it's ugly head, and yesterday's tough talk will be meaningless.
The question is, which candidate might prove to be more approachable, more open-minded, more sensitive to the challenges the world is facing ?
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
Ronin57 wrote:
Obama tells the them they are a wealthy nation , please correct me are they not in the red for a few trillion dollars ....
That's just what the bail-out will end up costing; I lost track of the noughts in the real debt a long time ago; they just seemed to increase by another couple a month. I just can't count beyond (British) billion.
But that's what the TV audience wants to hear; like Bush, "we can get through this", like McCain, "we're all really clever, so we don't really have a problem we can't fix". It's a comfort blanket. Or heads-under-the-bedclothes time.
What's the difference between an American presidential pessimist and an American presidential optimist?
The first says the glass is half full; the second says you'll need at least three more to hold all the water by tomorrow.
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At the risk of sounding like JohnAAA and his polling statistics, here are the average payoffs for gamblers tonight:
A $100 bet on McCain pays $222;
a $100 bet on Obama pays $36.58.
Intrade has McCain at 28.3 and Obama at 71.7.
The spread has widened since the debate. Does that mean that Obama "won" this ridiculous political performance?
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jello,
McCain's limp is due to his time in a concentration camp and not because he's old. And using your argument, the fact that he's old should make him more qualified on health issues.
I absolutely agree with McCain AND the Democrats that the Judiciary could be an effective means of managing bankruptcies. Unfortunately, the sheer volume of cases would absolutely overload the system. With experience in Hurricane Katrina programs, I can tell you that a plan like that would be next to impossible to implement.
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I believe that the millions of observers of this debate
across the globe missed the point that the real
McCain and Obama were absent, due to fears of
assassination. Obviously, this must be the reason
why their responses were so wooden and scripted.
The one exception to this was McCain's announcement
of a plan to buy out mortgages and renegotiate
payments with homeowners. I hope that there are
a few million extra printing presses lying idle, because
we're going to need them to print up all of the money
to do this.
#17, british-ish, you are being needlessly pessimistic
about foreign policy positions. Our legions of scientists,
cloned from their ancestors at Penamunde, have
developed a drug which makes everybody love
us Americans. We will gladly modify it to work
for our allies. Problem solved!
#24, Sam, sorry to hear that you have to work
so hard. May I borrow your Bugatti for the night?
#27, Fritz_Kraut, what you mentioned makes me
wonder if Sarah Palin is going to dress in black for
the inauguration.
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How does anybody call this debate a tie? It was a clear win for Obama. He was on point all the way through. His answers were clear, concise and compelling to this independent voter. McCain was vague and repetitive in his responses, and generally came across as tired. Repeatedly stating that Obama will raise taxes when Obama said time and time again that 95% of people will get a tax cut. Repeatedly questioning Obama's judgement on foreign policy when Obama made the right call on Iraq years before it was popular. McCain sounded like a beaten man to me. Obama schooled him and looked like a President doing it. Game over.
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#21. SydneySD-6: "It sure looks like time is running out on McCain."
In every sense of the phrase. A reason many are concerned about his vice-president.
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Dear oh dear.
"but McCain is a crippled geezer.?You heard right, crippled; alleged war hero or not, he looks, well, disabled when he moves.??How does that possibly influence the voters ? No, seriously."
And:
"mccain limped very badly every time he moved around the stage and that cannot be helpful on the age and health issues"
The campaign over discrimination against disable people obviously needs to be stepped up a bit.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Roosevelt (Franklin, not Teddy) use a wheelchair? Kennedy had a back brace. . .Gordon Brown, our PM is blind in one eye; we had a totally blind Home Secretary for a few years . . .
And on a purely personal note, I'm "crippled" too; and anyone who suggests that diminishes my mental abilities is going to get the sharp end of my crutch right up where the sun don't shine.
A little reconsideration could be in order, perhaps?
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"THAT ONE"
Look for it tomorrow on campaign posters on both republican and democratic rallies. Apparently the "right" and the "left" liked the phrase :
"THAT ONE"
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NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:
17. Hello british-ish and good day.
What part of US foreign policy did the Guardian believe needed to be changed?
Most of it, but primarily the doctrine of pre-emption, the combative approach of "you're with us or against us" and the sometimes casual dismissal of international law.
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Libertarian Agenda,
With all due respect, please tell me you aren't serious? That's like saying that if Adolf Hitler had fled to Switzerland during the middle of WWII, we shouldn't have taken him out not matter what.
I don't care if Bin Laden is inside the Mayor's office in downtown Islamabad, we would be stupid not to eliminate him if we were certain of his whereabouts.
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Not sure why but my post 35 seems to be held up in the Censor's office.
So, can I say I agree with post 40 from simplecommonsense?
And if 35 does pop up later then apologies for repeating myself, but to me the most telling bit was after the end of the debate, while the talking heads were waffling and the feed was still running.
McCain gone to bed? And did he refuse to shake Obama's hand?????
Obama playing the crowd, signing autographs, posing for numerous photo's with those cute little throwaway (security issue?) cameras. Impressive and I think it will tell people a lot. The audience knew they were with their next President.
Attack on Iran or North Korea notwithstanding Obama just won the big prize.
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Sorry, meant to ask
"That one" - was that just rude or deliberately belittling. (Failed at a guess).
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Fans of both sides will feel vindicated and outraged as usual... unable to see any valid points that the other side has made.
But all these debates seem to do is underline the irrelevance of politicians.
For 90% of the questions BOTH missed the point. And appealing to the existing opinions of their supporters seems more important than addressing the real problems/solutions.
How can either party solve or manage any problems when the whole process encourages them to ignore real solutions and be as misinformed as possible.
Fiddling while...
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Re #31 from british-ish
McCain was referring to Social Security benefits - our take on the state pension. He said that workers today, paying into the system, will not be able to get the same benefits as those drawing them today. He may also have included Medicare (government subsidized health insurance for the over 65s and disabled) but did not specifically mention that.
Bush tried to privatize social security this term, but it was a dismal flop thank goodness - he wanted to put the social security funds into private market accounts. Had that happened, most of those would be disappearing down the stock market drain even as we speak...
The other thing McCain said that was interesting was that he wanted to buy up the mortgages for householders threatened with foreclosure.
What was that about? Isn't that part of the 700 billion dollar I've just helped pay for?
His base will be fuming over that one, I bet...
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gunsandreligion wrote:
I believe that the millions of observers of this debate
across the globe missed the point that the real McCain and Obama were absent, due to fears of
assassination. Obviously, this must be the reason why their responses were so wooden and scripted.
You know, listening to McCain I kept thinking of Maggie Thatcher's voice makeover. His voice and intonation -- I just listened, I didn't watch -- kept reminding me of Ronnie Reagan.
If they were really third-rate resting actors imported from Holywood for the night, that explains it.
Illuminating as ever, gunsandreligion. I don't know what we'd do without these brilliant iniights.
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41.David_C,
Unfortunately, many have similar fears about Obama on inauguration day.
47. memink,
Sorry, but if you noticed at the end of the debate, both McCain and Obama were blocking Brokaw's camera shot because they were shaking hands.
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I see no clues that Obama would follow Bush's policies. Do you believe that missile defense in the Ukraine is preemption?
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45. british,
I see no clues that Obama would follow Bush's policies. Do you believe that missile defense in the Ukraine is preemption?
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skintodd,
The 700 billion (soon to be 1.5 trillion) has nothing to do with homeowners. That is strictly 'new' money.
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39, guns.
What do you think would happen if McCain died two or three days before the election? Would the Republicans slap someone on the ticket, let Obama run unopposed, or let a dead man run?
If they let a dead man run and he won, Palin could never succeed as president since there had been no president (except in spirit) to succeed. Maybe the Republicans would quietly put McCain in cold storage and let him thaw right after the votes were in.
Your comment about Palin wearing black at the inauguration inspired me.
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56 marbles
methinks your scenario might already have happened
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This debate was more about avoiding potential pitfalls than actually going on the offensive or laying out one's plans. And that's a very interesting insight by gunsandreligion, they might have been hollywodd extras on stage instead of the real ones.
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#24. SamTyler1969: "My posts are limited these days, times are hard."
And to think that ten days ago you wrote Working folks refer to themselves as, well, working folks. As for not being working class (or if you prefer middle class, blue collar)? Not any more, no.
The American dream, baby.
While I feel sorry for anyone whose life is not going to plan, perhaps you can now empathise with those who do see themselves as "working folks". I hope the dream doesn't become a nightmare; you're too interesting to lose!
#50. skintodd: "McCain said . . . that he wanted to buy up the mortgages for householders threatened with foreclosure."
Very strange - what about those of us who have paid on time for years - do they get their payments back? Sounded like pandering to me. Not much better than the "stimulus" payments which were sent out earlier this year.
52. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "Unfortunately, many have similar fears about Obama on inauguration day."
Which would you rather have for Vice-president, a neophyte or someone who knows more than a little about foreign affairs? You don't have to answer!
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57, meminmk.
Is it possible that McCain is a dummy and Tina Fey is a ventriloquist?
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"2005: My great hope as the questions begin is that ordinary people are slightly better questioners than the first two utterly hopeless overpaid "moderators".
What is with you Justin! The questions asked in the first two debates were not all that awful, and perhaps most shocking is that the questions in this one weren't all that different!! Also, where did you get access to the previous moderator's pay checks? Isn't that a breach of privacy? What do you think is a reasonable salary for a TV debate moderator?
I'd love an answer, thanks!
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#56. allmymarbles: "What do you think would happen if McCain died two or three days before the election?"
Worse than that, what would happen if he died two or three days after the election? Or at any time before Inauguration Day? Would the 'lipstick lady' automatically become President? Scary thought.
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In 43 I made a similar point about FDR in response to the two posts about McCain being "crippled".
I also pointed out that Gordon Brown (our PM) is blind in one eye, and we had a blind Home Secretary, while Kennedy wore a brace.
I too am 'crippled', and I find the implication that it diminishes my or others' mental rather than physical capacity offensive.
(Now, I hope this gets past the moderators, since it appears that the common word for a walking aid that is somewhat more sophisticated than a walking stick that I used previously was apparently a word "some people might think offensive". Oh, please!)
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Clearly an Obama win tonight! Frankly it wasn't even close in my book. One interesting thing that was apparent from the start is that McCain seemed to constantly take notes or refer to his notes for fear of fogetting the question. Obama seemed confident and relaxed with the questions and had answers in his head and not on paper. Maybe McCain's age is becoming more and more of a factor but I certainly want a president who can retain a minimum amount of information in his head rather than need constant prompting - at one point McCain seemed to try and sneekily take a peak at the question he wrote down just in case he forgot the answer!
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54: NDPNDNTTHNKR wrote:Do you believe that missile defense in the Ukraine is preemption?
It would certainly be extremely provocative to Russia.
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59. David_C,
Don't be so presumptive. I don't care for Palin's politics much either. BUT, please don't give Obama any undue credit. He has the same amount of experience as Palin, though his crash course in foreign policy started a little earlier, i.e. when he announced his candidacy.
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McCain was much stronger on defense.
I was very surprised to hear Obama say that we would have an "obligation" to step in if genocide were occurring. He seems very naive.
McCain's position that we should only intervene if we can favorably influence the outcome seems much wiser.
This is one case where Obama's lack of experience and his having to rely on the theoretical is dangerous.
Obama seemed lost in his answer re: Russia. He talked about 21st century responses, being proactive versus reactive, etc. Completely faked his way through it.
Obama seemed to include a tax increase in almost every answer. Oh boy.
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I have tried three times now to suggest that being disabled myself, I am less than happy with the two posts that imply someone with a disabilty is less mentally capable than someone who is not.
What exactly is so problematic about me writing that?
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62. David_C,
Now that you the subject has been broached, I would take a Palin/Pelosi executive branch over a Biden/Pelosi one any day. Especially with an overwhelmingly controlled Democratic Congress. Without the benefits of a 3 party system as in Britain, the same government that perpetrated the Fannie/Freddie debacle, will have full control over our financial future.
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42. Allmymarbles (previous topic)
Yes I think it does..... the winning thing ?........ and desperate men......... frankly, its more than a concern.
On this second meeting......... *that one* .... Mr * hair transplant*, a funny that wasnt', clearly lost ground........
Looking at the two performances my belief is that Sen Obamas was the more assured and delivered the better constructed answers. It was surely the more reassuring performance, in such heady times, for ordinary people now facing severe domestic pressures in the eye.
On Foreign Policy and International Relations I say this on Afghanistan / Pakistan. I firmly believe the recent comments from Brig Mark Coleman - Smith, in theatre, and news of other possible Saudi brokered talks to be far closer to reality and a source for encouragment.
That Sec Robert Gates has dismissed them as being defeatist is staggering and absolutely shows the one dimensional strategy that both he and Sen McCain share. Any successful formula in Afghanistan will be borne out of diplomacy, engagement and talks - not military action and *Victory* with a capital V.
That said, and having already raised points on US x-border attacks across into Pakistan, the current policy of CIA remote attacks into the NW Pakistani regions and direct SF heliborne missions are undoubtedly doing far more to fuel the crisis and rank anti-americanism, strategically, than the snatching of any short term gains. On this aspect I would like to take BO out for a quiet drink and put a different view and alternative approach to him.
In any event, I ask everyone this......
....is OBL actually genuinely resident in a cave in this region and / or even still alive? How sure can we all be that he / they haven't sown a beautifully simple, virtual seed of deception here? Just like one Radovan Karodzic, it it completely implausible that he might be flourishing very much closer to home...... maybe even working in lower Manhattan?
If you were OBL, where wouldn't you be right now?
Bill
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I think it was a wasted question to ask "What don't you know and how will you learn it?"
They should have just been given time to make closing remarks.
And, since we're making petty comments on appearances, Obama often looked shaken and flushed while listening to McCain, as though he'd never been around anyone like that before. I guess his advisors aren't that tough.
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#66. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "Don't be so presumptive. I don't care for Palin's politics much either. BUT, please don't give Obama any undue credit. He has the same amount of experience as Palin, though his crash course in foreign policy started a little earlier, i.e. when he announced his candidacy."
That wasn't the question! Of the two vice-presidential candidates, which would you prefer? I understand that some would have concerns about Mr Obama, that's a given.
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62, David.
I agree that if McCain won and died right after the election the result would be grim. But if he died just before it think how exciting it would be. This has been a boring year. We deserve a reward.
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65. british,
I don't think you should confuse that with preemption, though. What do you think a resurgence of hard liners in Russia will bring for those breakaway nations? Don't you believe there is a real chance that Russia would attempt to regain control over those countries? If so, the energy pipeline to Euro countries like Germany is significantly impacted. Not to mention, those countries overwhelmingly desire to become part of a unified Europe. Should we abandon them so as to not upset the Russians?
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No. 24 Sam
Thanks, Sam, and keep your spirits up. Your wit and analysis are missed, but I'm glad you're takin' care of business.
b
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70. BillTyrone:
"It was surely the more reassuring performance, in such heady times, for ordinary people now facing severe domestic pressures in the eye."
Bill, I would have to disagree. It's not reassuring for me to hear hypotheticals and conceptual answers right now. I'd prefer someone who's actually gotten some work done.
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72, David.
Be fair. Obama was a state senator in a major state for seven years and a U. S. senator for almost four years. Palin has less than two years experience in a minor state. (It would be naive to count Wasilla.)
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I agree that Obama was easily the winner in this debate. In fact, McCain did so badly, it was pitiful. I felt that he was just repeating some of what Obama had said in many answers, like when he claimed he would care for the middle class...what a joke!
The most memorable was his opinion of health care. I am so glad McCain answered first, and in case anyone missed it, he did NOT believe it was a right!
McCain is "by the rich and for the rich, till death us do part"in my opinion.
Notice how both candidates never talk about the poor, only about the middle class. The poor in this country are a forgotten group, who are really suffering.
I believe Obama will be a better president for America and the world. Only problem now is overcoming the ever-present racism that is alive and well in this country. A white candidate with his qualifications and abilities would win this election with a landslide victory.
I am very hopeful he will manage to win, though. I cannot imagine how dreadful it would be to have McCain/Palin in office.
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David_C,
No reason to get agitated. I would honestly prefer Biden to Palin. But I don't believe that McCain's untimely death is a 'given' as you described Obama's questionable policies.
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No. 76
Every time I inadvertently and regretably read something you wrote, I feel like you sneezed on me.
b
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#42, NDPN... don't you think that was a little
unfair to Fritz. Surely he is as entitled to make
fun of McCain as anyone else!
#56, Ms. Marbles, I can see the movie screenplay now...
A beautiful young gold digger from Alaska is
engaged to marry a rich old white guy. But,
he croaks 3 days before the marriage.
She attempts to conceal the event from his
family, who are on to her. Instead of showing
up at the church which was planned, she
finds a Reverend Wright to marry them on
the other side of town.
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Pacific Coaster,
Please. Not so long ago, there were hordes of Democrats praising McCain for being so far left of the Republican base. Biden, Clinton, Lieberman, and many many others. The drama of a 'dreadful' McCain presidency is much to hollow.
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#24, Seriously Sam, I hope that all is well with you
and that you are just working hard.
And, to paraphrase a saying, "good beer
will get you though when you have no money
better than money will get you through with
no good beer."
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68, british-ish.
I don't think anyone is equating McCain's physical disability with his mental capability. And it is not his physical disability that is disturbing, but his bouts of melanoma. Melanoma is recurrent, and successive recurrences tend to be progressively more serious. If they appear internally they are usually fatal.
McCain's mental capability is something else again. It would appear that he is getting more rash and is making bad decisions. He is also getting testy in the public arena (not the McCain of old). Some people are young and bright and alert at 72; others become less flexible and more forgetful. He says the same thing over and over again. To me it looks as though McCain is showing his age, and then some.
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#69. NDPNDNTTHNKR: "Without the benefits of a 3 party system as in Britain . . ."
It hasn't made one iota of difference during the last decade; Labour has had an overwhelming majority so it's been immaterial what the Opposition thinks. When Bills have been rejected in the House of Lords, the present government has used the provisions of the Parliament Act to override the upper house. It's no better on that side of the Atlantic.
#77. allmymarbles: "David, Be fair. Obama was a state senator in a major state for seven years and a U. S. senator for almost four years . . ."
I think you may have misunderstood the post; I was responding to one from NDPNDNTTHNKR. I concur with your appraisal of Mr Obama.
#79. NDPNDNTTHNKR (How I wish your screen name was not all in upper case!) "I don't believe that McCain's untimely death is a 'given' as you described Obama's questionable policies."
The "given" was that many people would agree that Mr Obama has questionable policies. I'll just have to make myself a little clearer in future.
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51. At 05:00am on 08 Oct 2008, british-ish I thought exactly the same about the Reagan similarity. I was desperately trying to remember what McCain normally sounds like. Seeing that it was 3.00am my time I've only seen some bites on CNN. Is it worth watching the full repeat?
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#62. "what would happen if he died two or three days after the election? Or at any time before Inauguration Day? Would the 'lipstick lady' automatically become President? Scary thought."
I looked it up - and here's the answer:
20th Amendment, Section 3:
If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
So if the winner dies after the Electoral College votes have been cast, then the Vice-president becomes President.
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I think that Obama won on points overall.
His most awkward start was the Russia answer. He made good points on health care, tax plan, new jobs, economic issues. Spoke to hard-pressed middle class. Call to service with energy answer hit a tone largely missing from current administration.
McCain more often answering questions with either feel-good or peripherally-related talking points (such as the long Iraq digression in response to the question of a doctrine for humanitarian intervention).
In terms of the most sacred constituents, I guess small businesses are the new farmers. Obama gave a full and measured answer (all the pros and cons of his health and tax plans for small businesses) to McCain's "Obama's tax secret" jab.
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42. 2008, NDPNDNTTHNKR:
27. Kraut,?FDR was in a wheelchair. But, if you are as German as your name implies, I can understand where your bias comes from.
____
It's common knowledge that FDR was in a wheelchair, he also happened to be president when TV wasn't the main source of information in the US, and appearances didn't matter as much.
My point was, and it's the first time I thought of that, how do US American voters perceive a candidate who moves like Mini-Me ?
Personally, I couldn't care less, but I'm really curious.
I can't quite follow you re. the origin of my 'bias', or what my nationality has to do with my reasoning.
______
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71, AndreainNY:
???And, since we're making petty comments on appearances, Obama often looked shaken and flushed while listening to McCain, as though he'd never been around anyone like that before.
_______
Ma'am, I have watched one debate, and you must have watched a completely different one.
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68, british-ish
further to 84
A good example of McCain's lack of judgment was what he said when he introduced Sarah Palin to the country. "We are soul mates. I love her." (I remember being shocked at the time.)
That is a very peculiar statement to make about a person you have just chosen to share a ticket that leads to the White House. It was unprofessional and did not confer dignity on Gov. Palin. This is not how you would speak of a fellow public servant. It's how you would speak of a woman who turns you on. This sort of indiscretion suggests that he is failing.
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84, 81:
No? That certainly looked like the implication to me. Or should I simply read those two comments as "if you are disabled you're not fit for X job"? Is that much different?
Our PM is blind in one eye, and we had a blind Minister.
And I am angry because my original posts about this were 'referred to the moderators' as far as I can see only because I used the common six letter word beginning with c and ending in h for the walking aid I use when I'm lucky enough not to use a wheelchair and it triggered the software into saying it was 'offensive'.
Stupid. I don't know any other word for the thing.
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This comment was removed because the moderators found it broke the House Rules.
85, David.
My apologies. It did seem so unlike you to say something like that.
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last thought, on the supposed evils of 'government mandates' - let's remember some government mandates: clean air, clean water, workplace safety. Obama had a good response to McCain's idea that (in so many words) we need to even further privatize or deregulate health insurance.
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86, David:
Good heavens, no. But I ended up not quite sure what he really sounded like too.
I think he's been having voice training the last few days to make sure he would sound, as I put it early on, like a nice old uncle.
"Loses his temper? Shouts? Swears? What, this softly spoken warm-voiced nice old man? Never!"
It's image, isn't it? Politics for YouTube and the 10 second soundbites on TV and radio. I've heard some already. And he sounds, aw, shucks, like a really nice guy, y'know?.
Good Cop (McCain); Bad Cop (Palin). It's all games.
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Senator Obama clearly won this debate. His answers were clear and concise and he offered real solutions to America's woes. He built a rapport with the audience that resonated on screen while managing to demonstrate empathy for the millions of Americans who have fallen victim to the Bush/Cheney years in office.
Senator McCain, on the other hand, came across as beligerent and aggressive. He sneered at his opponent before announcing his intention to raise the federal defecit to above a trillion dollars with some ridiculously unworkable mortgage bail-out. McCain came across as a novice debater who was out of his league in the town hall format. He was outwitted and outsmarted by Obama at every turn and his plan to scam America of another four years of corruption unravelled.
Following on from his first debate win and the Biden/Palin debate, where Joe Biden destroyed Sarah Palin rhetorically, I think Obama can be comfortable in the knowledge that the "Maverick" is really just doughnut.
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89, Fritz.
There may not have been television when FDR was president, but there were newsreels that preceded every movie, and people went to the movies every week. Also we had lots of newspapers and the president was always in them.
He was, however, self-conscious about being a cripple and would go to great lengths to make himself appear normal. But if he was self-conscious, the people were not. We all knew he had had polio and admired him for continuing his career in spite of it.
The reaction to McCain has to do with his age, rather than his disabilities. He looks and acts like an old man. FDR was vital.
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#91, british-ish, anybody who has been in the thick
of it is disabled in one way or another. Some disabilities
are visible, others are not.
All life on this planet is fragile.
I think that Fritz was just asking a question, not
ridiculing McCain because of a physical disability.
However, that should not dissuade us from our
main task of ridiculing politicians because, after all,
they are politicians.
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68 ,2008, british-ish wrote:
I have tried three times now to suggest that being disabled myself, I am less than happy with the two posts that imply someone with a disabilty is less mentally capable than someone who is not.
______
That's not been my point; I was inquiring about the perception of a disabled candidate by the US public.
The German Interior Minister is in a wheelchair , after being shot , and he's brilliant. I hate his guts, but that's another story.
I must admit I've been a bit rude, but consider the importance of visual appearance in the US, then look at McCain - he does move in a funny way.
Of course, he was injured in the war,
or in captivity. Was he ?
He's a war hero, his injuries are most honourable, something to be proud of . Says who ?
I guess my point is, without the McCain war hero myth, there'd be no McCain.
No Senator, no candidate, just some weird old man, who wouldn't get the time of day from the very people he's trying to lure .
That's what I was thinking of when I watched him tonight.
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91, british-ish.
If I think someone is not mentally fit to be president, you can call that discrimination if you wish. If I think someone is too ill to survive a reasonable term in office, you can call that discrimination if you wish.
You are projecting your disability (and I don't know what it is) onto someone else. FDR was crippled by polio and served four terms as president. He was crippled before he ran the first time and everyone knew it.
However, he was mentally fit and had no illnesses at the time. He was merely crippled. That disability did not prevent him from being a fine president.
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84:
Repetition of phrases by a politician is hardly a sign of mental frailty. They all work on the principle that if you say the same thing often enough, people will believe it.
There have been plenty of examples of that principle operating in posts on this blog.
Hmm. On second thoughts, you may have a point there.
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98, guns.
I think we are carrying the humor burden alone.
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#89. Fritz_Kraut: "It's common knowledge that FDR was in a wheelchair, he also happened to be president when TV wasn't the main source of information in the US, and appearances didn't matter as much."
In fact, it wasn't common knowledge during FDR's presidency. He took enormous pains to be seen as physically healthy and even gave the appearance of being ambulatory, being discreetly supported on both sides to maintain the illusion. Although there was no widespread television, newsreels were a part of movie-going and could capture all the important events of the day - and seen on the (very) big screen. The PBS series American Experience showed just how far precautions were taken to present him as able-bodied. Although she would have been very young, perhaps allmymarbles remembers from her earlier years?
With regard to Mr McCain, he does appear very stiff, as if corseted or wearing body armour. I don't think this is particularly problematic, but given his age and the risk of cancer, that would be (and is) a concern. Perhaps a full scale medical examination (physical and cognitive) should be mandatory; it would be for health insurance, to ensure that there were no pre-existing conditions.
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97, allmymarbles wrote:
The reaction to McCain has to do with his age, rather than his disabilities. He looks and acts like an old man. FDR was vital.
______
Agreed; and my sincerest apologies to Brit-ish, I never meant to offend.
It is just mind-boggling how pretentious the whole process is ; and how silly it appears at times when one watches the candidates tip-toeing around all the media mine fields.
Taking the gloves off - betcha !
A wink is as close as it gets...
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103, David.
PBS can say whatever it likes. The grapevine is a wonderful thing. Everyone knew how serious FDR's problem was. We also knew he had a long-time mistress. That never appeared in the news either.
The problem was FDR's, not ours.
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99 Fritz Kraut
Someone, possibly Ed, posted a link here a couple of days ago, to an article about McCain in a state newspaper. The article was dated 1989 and complained that it was about time McCain stopped punting himself as an ex POW and war hero in order to reinvent himself after the Keating scandal. Now that was 20 years ago and he's still singing the same story.
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While we're talking about FDR, in retrospect, he
was a perfect symbol for the country. While essentially
wheelchair-bound, he was able to chart the course of
one of the most difficult periods in this country's history.
Many Europeans may not be aware of Roosevelt's
intellect. It is said that he would play a game with
visitors to the White House. If they picked two counties,
one on the East Coast, and one on the West Coast,
and drew a straight line between those two points
with a ruler, he could (without looking at the map)
describe what politicians were running in each
county, and what the issues were in each election.
If you understand how big this country is, and how
many counties are in it, that's quite an accomplishment.
Of course, a lot of people absolutely hated him.
But, in some sense, we need someone like that
today.
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98
Well, yes, but having fought hard over discrimination against disabled people for a long time, and because I've suffered from it because my disabilty is visible too, I get touchy about it.
I remember someone telling me he disliked David Blunkett (our blind minister) because he didn't look directly at the camera and didn't seem to blink much. He apparently didn't know he was blind until I told him.
It didn't stop him being ridiculed and pilloried mercilessly (there was even a 15 minute radio satirical musical written about him which was hilarious) over a very silly relationship over which he had to resign, but any aspersions connected with his blindness was seriously off limits.
I think sometimes, there's too much curiosity and too much speculation about the medical condition of presidents. No-one speculates much on the degree of megalomania which must figure pretty largely in the psyche of polticians running for president or PM.
I'm just old-fashioned (or British) enough to think that the image should be less important than the policies or ability, which I suppose Fritz was really getting at.
What was the name of that Senator who finally retired at age 102 or something? Strom Thurmond? I thought Americans liked old politicians. Same as old news anchors. Old actors . . .
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Strom Thurmond lived to a ripe old age, and was
quite the ladies' man, too.
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Here in India, Most of our politicians are quite old (they're atleast in their mid 40s minimum). Our PM is 76 years old now. The previous one was 71 years. So here it's a monopoly of old people in politics.
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108, british-ish.
Old politicians are fine with us if they are not so impaired that they cannot function. And people age differently. My next-door neighbor just turned 106. It is only in the last two or three months that got a companion to help him out. Before that he took care of his house, went shopping and was always clean and neat. His sister died at 103.
Some people are practically finished when they reach 70. McCain does not appear to be like my neighbor. I am loath to entrust my country to him.
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#105. allmymarbles: "PBS can say whatever it likes. The grapevine is a wonderful thing. Everyone knew how serious FDR's problem was."
With the greatest respect, you were only eleven when FDR died and not even born when he first became President, so I can't see that you can state positively that "everyone knew" how serious was his disability. From what I have read, it was almost like the "D notice" in Britain of earlier times, an understanding by the press not to reveal sensitive matters. The relationship between King Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson is an example. Apparently the press rarely, if ever showed FDR in a wheel chair or