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Live Reporting

All times stated are UK

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  1. End of our live coverage

    At the start of Monday there were four amendments yet to discuss and as the day ends there are still four amendments to be debated.

    Debate has been solely on the amendment proposed by the education committee.

    At this point it's unclear if the rest of the agenda - requetes on 5G and the L'Ancresse anti-tank wall and proposals for a Tribunal of Inquiry - will get a look in.

    Join us from 09:30 on Tuesday when we'll continue coverage of the debate on the requete on the future of Guernsey's secondary education.

  2. Voting on the education amendment

    Fallaize and Graham amendment

    Replace the requete propositions with motions to note already agreed decisions and commission a report into if further building space is required at the two sites and direct the committee to improve consultation with teachers and staff

    Pour (for) 18: Emilie McSwiggan, Shane Langlois, Heidi Soulsby, Lindsay de Sausmarez, Peter Roffey, Dawn Tindall, Barry Brehaut, Rhian Tooley, Charles Parkinson, Michelle Le Clerc, Jennifer Merrett, Gavin St Pier, Jane Stephens, Matt Fallaize, Sarah Hansmann Rouxel, Richard Graham, Mark Dorey and Jonathan Le Tocq.

    Contre (against) 18: Al Brouard, Andrea Dudley-Owen, David De Lisle, Rob Prow, Victoria Oliver, Peter Ferbrache, John Gollop, Lester Queripel, Marc Leadbeater, Joe Mooney, Lyndon Trott, Carl Meerveld, Neil Inder, Mary Lowe, Laurie Queripel, Jeremy Smithies, Chris Green and Barry Paint.

    Absent: Deputy Paul Le Pelley and Alderney Representatives Steve Roberts and Alex Snowdon.

  3. What amendments are left to debate?

    After debate and voting on four amendments there are four more that could be laid.

    If approved these would change the proposals in the "pause and review" requete.

    In broad terms they would mean:

    • Add proposals for the rebuilding of La Mare de Carteret Primary School, update plans for the Guernsey Institute(combining the higher education offerings) or generally for post-16 education
    • Add a comprehensive travel plan to be worked up for each secondary school site
    • Ensure that a return to selection is excluded from any educational model being considered
    • Replace proposals with four different models to be comprehensively compared in a report due before the States before March 2021

    Deputy Bailiff Richard McMahon said the debate would start with the last of those amendments.

  4. Drawn vote means education amendment is lost

    An equal vote of 18-18 means the amendment put forward by Deputies Fallaize and Graham was lost.

  5. Policy work required 'cuts into engagement time'

    Deputy Matt Fallaize says the amount of information required for a full business case means there is little time left for engaging with stakeholders.

    He told the States: "This is a major transformation programme... there is still a great deal of work to be done before the Policy and Resources Committee releases funds, that requires a great deal of additional information.

    "It inevitably detracts from the time available to engage with external stakeholders unless you are a very large organisation or you throw very large sums of money at it and you can do both of those things together but that is not the position the States are in."

    Deputy Matt Fallaize

    Mr Fallaize said: "It's not productive to have a situation where a committee gets the endorsement of the States twice for a major strategic policy and then the internal processes the committee has to apply itself to are making a significant contribution to the difficulty the policy runs into.

    "If government makes a decision that it wants to move in a particular direction in terms of strategic policy the while of government... needs to get behind that strategic policy and deliver it.

    "It's very difficult for a committee to create the pressure for the whole government machine to get behind a strategic policy, but it's a very major problem."

    He warned other committees they may face similar issues with upcoming major strategic policies.

  6. Call for courage to admit teachers are not on board

    A number of politicians have mentioned the division this issue has caused - among professionals, among the community and among politicians.

    Certainly the president and vice president of the Policy and Resources Committee do not agree on this amendment.

    Deputy Lyndon Trott says he would not support the amendment.

    "Only an idiot would continue with this policy in the knowledge that the overwhelming majority of people that we're going to trust to make this work are telling you don't do it, pause and review and that's the basis of my support for the requete."

    Deputy Lyndon Trott
    Quote Message: Sometimes it is more courageous to admit that despite your very best efforts you have failed to take with you the most important cohort in this whole picture."

    He said: "People have said 'the children must come first' but if you have a completely disillusioned, dissatisfied, strike-threatening group... you're hardly going to get the best possible environment for the teaching community to teach and therefore for children to thrive - it really is that critical."

  7. Education debate: States in 'least worst option territory'

    Deputy Gavin St Pier

    Deputy Gavin St Pier has told the States: "We are very much in the case of the least worst option territory, what I described as policy Russian roulette.

    "I don't think we can plow on regardless... it is a folly to ignore the teachers and the public who do have genuine concerns that are not fully addressed by this amendment."

    He said: "It is important that we do maintain forward momentum, the process was begun in January 2018 and will continue with the Education, Sport and Culture Committee continuing to prepare their full business case."

    Mr St Pier said he would be supporting the education committee's amendment but that if the one school on two sites model continues to get the States support "there is much work still to do".

  8. 'Interesting debate... but not much progress'

    Quote Message: Interesting debate today but one that i don't think has made us much progress."

    The words of requerrant Deputy Andrea Dudley-Owen, who unsurprisingly is against the amendment, which if approved would remove the proposals to halt work on the current model and to start a review of "other viable models of non-selective educational delivery".

  9. Guillotine motion fails

    An attempt to bring debate on the amendment - laid by Deputies Fallaize and Graham on behalf of the education committee - to a close has failed.

    Deputy Marc Leadbeater had placed the motion.

  10. Eighth amendment aims to narrow down models reviewed

    It's been clear from the debate that there is no clarity among States members of what "other viable models of non-selective educational delivery" as mentioned in the requete means.

    In a bid to create some clarity Deputies Neil Inder and Al Brouard have suggested these models be compared:

    • one school on two sites (the current approved model)
    • one school of three 11-18 colleges at St Sampson's, Les Beaucamps and Les Varendes
    • three 11-16 schools with a separate sixth form centre
    • two 11-16 schools and one 11-18 school

    They have also suggested longer may be needed and have set a later deadline - moving it from the end of 2020 to March 2021.

    For now debate on the amendment laid on behalf of the Education, Sport and Culture Committee continues.

  11. 'Requete is less pause and review and more stop and rewind'

    Deputy Mark Dorey believes the requete would send the States back two years rather than generate new information.

    Deputy Mark Dorey

    He said the debate in January 2018 was "effectively a comprehensive comparison between the preferred three-school model proposed by the former committee and the two-school model amendment and it was overwhelmingly in favour of the two-school model 26 to 13".

    The education committee member said: "I've called the requete stop and rewind because we are just going back to repeat the comprehensive comparisons, which have been done previously all over again.

    "For no reason other than it seems to cause delay and substantial other costs, which could be up to £11m."

  12. How much would a delay cost?

    Deputy Peter Roffey mentioned these figures earlier, which were published last month, showing the costs to the transition to a new secondary education model of a delay.

    The full details are here, but here a few of the findings are:

    • Transforming Education Programme spending so far - £3.9m
    • If an alternative model is chosen between £2.8m - £2.9m of that £3.9m would be written off
    • 1,300 students are due to start wearing the Lisia School uniform from September 2020
    • If they don't then underwriting third party expenses is estimated to be £500,000
    • Dependent on a number of scenarios the costs of working up alternative models for comparison are between £2m and £4.5m
  13. Any delay 'will impact transition process'

    Education, Sport and Culture Committee member Rhian Tooley says the work cannot just be stopped as even the shortest delay caused by the requete will impact on the transition model.

    She said students would be effected even if that delay is the briefest it could be.

    Deputy Tooley said: "Even if all that delay does is cause a review to happen, which brings us to back to the model we are currently working on.

    "Delay to the build will have direct impact upon the pupil transition model that has already been shared and begun with parents and students."

  14. Education debate: Deputies 'like a headless chicken'

    Quote Message: We, the States members are like a headless chicken, floundering around, because we started from a very bad place."

    The view of Deputy Peter Ferbrache on the States decision made in March 2016 to end selection using the 11 plus system without having "any idea what would replace it".

  15. Extending buildings 'a financial unknown'

    Deputy Neil Inder has flagged his concern with the amendment from the education committee.

    He doesn't think the States should agree to the proposal for looking at increasing building space at the two sites without an idea of what the costs will be.

  16. States agrees to sit on Tuesday to finish education debate

    If needed politicians will return on Tuesday to continue debate on the requete and the amendments that have been placed.

  17. Requerrants want a 'true comparison' of models

    Deputy Carl Meerveld has told the States all the requerrants - the seven deputies behind the requete - want is a "true comparison" between the current model and previously considered alternatives.

    He also confirmed the requerrants would "step up to the plate" in response to a question from Deputy Matt Fallaize.

    Deputy Carl Meerveld
  18. 'We must take responsibility for position we are in now'

    Deputy Rob Prow, one of the requete signatories, has called for all States members to take responsibility for the current position and for the future of secondary education.

    He critised the "piecemeal fashion" that details of the model had been shared by the Committee for Education, Sport and Culture.

    He said "we need to listen to the public and directly involve the professionals" before calling on everyone in the States "to get behind this".

    The States is due to resume at 14:30.

  19. Requete 'aims to make education key election question'

    Education committee member Peter Roffey believes pushing back a decision on education will lead to the idea of a selection system returning as an issue in June's election.

    He told the States: "I suspect this requete is all about delay and deliberately pushing the key decisions to the other side of the election in order to make the question of secondary education - and that will inevitably include the issue of selection - the central question during that election campaign.

    "You can hear it now 'they spent four or five years trying to find a good way of doing non-selective education, they couldn't find one and therefore it logically follows that you go back to selection'.

    "It's not that I mind fighting an election where one of the key issues is education generally or selective against comprehensive, but we had one of those in 2006, I enjoyed fighting it, but how many more do we want to have before we move on."

  20. Education requete: Cost of delay 'at least £5m'

    Deputy Peter Roffey is quoting figures he says are from the project's professional advisers verified by officers of the Policy and Resources Committee for the costs of the unamended requete.

    He said the pause and review could cost as little as £2.5m if returned this year, "despite the election and that everything that goes with it", but that's just "so away with the fairies it's not worth considering".

    Mr Roffey said: "The cheapest realistic estimate is £5m... if we end up doing what we are planning to do anyway - that's great isn't it - maybe 10 to 11 million pounds if we go to any other education models.

    "Those are just the specific costs caused by the delay, most of the other possible models are also actually more capital and revenue hungry as well."

    He said he would rather see this money spent on additional facilities rather than "just on delay".