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Live Reporting

Steve Marshall and Brendon Mitchell

All times stated are UK

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  1. Post update

    And that just about brings our Premiership derby day live text commentary to a close. Thanks for joining us, it's been a pleasure.

    We'll be back again next Saturday with more live text coverage of Bath's match against Exeter and Harlequins' tussle with Northampton, plus we'll be keeping a close eye on Sale v Leicester and Newcastle v Saracens.

    We hope to enjoy your company again then.

  2. Review of the day

    Gloucester 16-39 Bath

    Sam Burgess

    Bath completed their biggest-ever Premiership win over Gloucester at Kingsholm in the final game of the day, in a match dominated by collapsed scrums.

    George Ford kicked Bath into a 15-9 lead at half-time, with Greig Laidlaw scoring the hosts' points from the tee.

    The game came to life after the break as a penalty try and Matt Garvey's score pushed the visitors ahead.

    And, although Dan Robson responded for the Cherry and Whites, Garvey went over again late on to make sure of his side's victory.

  3. Review of the day

    Northampton 23-19 Leicester

    Dylan Hartley

    The game of the day was undoubtedly at Franklin's Gardens, where Dylan Hartley was sent off in the first half before Northampton edged to victory over East Midlands rivals Leicester.

    With the game pointless, England hooker Hartley lashed out at Tigers' Matt Smith with just 17 minutes gone.

    Leicester registered a penalty try, but after the break Alex Waller and Ben Foden went over for the champions and Niki Goneva scored two of his own.

    However, with three minutes left Jamie Elliott touched down to secure a brilliant victory for the Premiership champions.

  4. Review of the day

    Saracens 78-7 London Welsh

    Richard Wigglesworth

    Richard Wigglesworth scored a second-half hat-trick as Saracens thrashed bottom side London Welsh.

    Sarries secured the quickest bonus point of the Premiership season so far before the break, with two Mako Vunipola tries and others from Brett Sharman, George Kruis and Chris Ashton giving them a 38-7 advantage.

    Elliot Kear's converted try was Welsh's only response as the hosts ran riot.

    Jackson Wray, Richard Barrington, Ben Ransom and Wigglesworth's treble helped lift Sarries to fourth in the table.

  5. Review of the day

    Harlequins 15-7 Newcastle

    Tim Swiel

    Tim Swiel was perfect with the boot as Harlequins overcame a resilient Newcastle Falcons to move up to seventh in the Premiership table.

    Falcons led 7-3 at the break with Alesana Tuilagi's try coming after a Swiel penalty gave Quins an early lead.

    South African fly-half Swiel slotted four second-half penalties to secure the hard-fought win.

    While Falcons piled the pressure on before the interval they struggled to seriously threaten after the break.

  6. Post update

    Gloucester 16-39 Bath

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "The Bath fans are going to be travelling home with copious amounts of Christmas cheer, while Gloucester supporters are a bit more bah-humbug.

    "They may feel aggrieved to have lost by such a margin, and it perhaps wasn't deserved.

    "But Bath never gave up, even with a 16-point cushion. Look out Saints, they're coming for you."

  7. Post update

    Gloucester 16-39 Bath

    Bath flanker Francois Louw told BT Sport about scrum time: "We want a free-flowing game, we want the ball to be alive and we want to give the fans something to cheer about. Unfortunately, it didn't allow for that tonight."

  8. Post update

    Gloucester 16-39 Bath

    Bath flanker Francois Louw told BT Sport: "It's amazing to get a victory over here at Kingsholm. There's a lot of history in this game, but also to get a victory for our Premiership campaign, I'm proud of the boys."

  9. Full time

    Gloucester 16-39 Bath

    Thirty-nine points and a winning margin of 23 suggests a spectacular West Country derby victory for Bath - but a classic this most certainly was not.

    The match was won at the scrum, where time and time again Gloucester were penalised, and England fly-half George Ford was able to kick six penalties in all.

  10. Try - Matt Garvey (con George Ford)

    Gloucester 16-39 Bath

    Matt Garvey completes Bath's biggest-ever win at Kingsholm! The big man picks up brilliantly and pounces over to score his second of the match, which George Ford converts with ease, and Gloucester's misery is complete.

  11. Post update

    Gloucester 16-32 Bath

    That's a big old push from the Bath pack, superb! They win a penalty and in the blink of an eye they're on the attack...

  12. Post update

    Gloucester 16-32 Bath

    Gloucester concede yet another penalty - but George Ford has had quite enough of scrums and this time heads for the corner. However, Bath's set-piece is far from perfect and the away side knock on.

  13. Post update

    Gloucester 16-32 Bath

    Two resets later and Bath win another penalty. Interestingly, they actually opt for another scrum. Given Sila Puafisi has already been sin-binned once, is the big Tongan walking a tightrope?

  14. Post update

    Gloucester 16-32 Bath

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "The home crowd certainly enjoyed that one.

    "Bath lead on the scoreboard by some way, and prior to Dan Robson's try, Gloucester had nothing to show for their intent.

    "But they've finally gone over and, much to the delight of the Shed, Sam Burgess has just dropped the ball.

    "Now, now boys and girls."

  15. Post update

    Gloucester 16-32 Bath

    Well, how about this, a contested scrum which doesn't end in a penalty - remarkably, the very first of the evening! Gloucester knock on in the tackle immediately after though, so here we go again...

  16. Try - Dan Robson (con James Hook)

    Gloucester 16-32 Bath

    Dan Robson scores for Gloucester

    An instant response from Gloucester, however! Dan Robson picks the ball up at the base of a ruck and darts down the blindside to slide over. They can't come back from this, can they? James Hook converts.

  17. Post update

    Gloucester 9-32 Bath

    Tom Bradshaw

    BBC Radio Bristol

    "Bath have done a good job. Their defence has been good and as the game has gone on they have exerted a stranglehold on the game and the points are coming now."

  18. Replacement

    Gloucester 9-32 Bath

    Sam Burgess fans, the big man has arrived. He's on for Semesa Rokoduguni.

  19. Try - Matt Garvey (con George Ford)

    Gloucester 9-32 Bath

    The referee asks: "is there any reason I cannot award the try?". The answer is no and Bath look well clear here.

    It must be said, Matt Kvesic almost pulled off a brilliant piece of work to prevent the try being scored, but the teleivision match official decided to give it and George Ford's conversion is good.

  20. Try review

    Gloucester 9-25 Bath

    Ollie Devoto has been in the middle of everything since coming on for Bath, and his break allows Matt Garvey to bundle his way over. But we're heading to the television match official...

  21. Post update

    Gloucester 9-25 Bath

    The blue, black and whites use their extra man wisely though and end up clearing the ball up field. Is that Sam Burgess I spy about to come on?

  22. Post update

    Gloucester 9-25 Bath

    Gloucester have the put-in and quickly recycle the ball. It's worked wide now to Charlie Sharples but the wing is snuffled out just short of the line. The home side keep the ball, however, and continue to knock on the Bath door.

  23. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Graeme Hobbs: That was an impressive maul from Bath! It can be such a weapon when done well #AvivaPrem #GLOSvBATH #bbcrugby #rugbyunited

  24. Post update

    Gloucester 9-25 Bath

    Credit to the 14 men of Gloucester, who've responded well since that try. There's a couple of huge hits from the Bath defence, replacement Rob Webber with the second, but it'll all end up with a scrum - which will, this time, be uncontested. Frankly, that can't be a bad thing.

  25. Try - penalty try (con George Ford)

    Gloucester 9-25 Bath

    Bath score penalty try

    It's probably fitting that, after all those collapsed scrums, it's a collapsed rolling maul that brings about the first try of the evening. Bath were heading to the line at pace and Gloucester's pack can only send it tumbling down. George Ford converts, the visitors now in complete control.

  26. Sin-bin - Sila Puafisi

    Gloucester 9-18 Bath

    Here's another scrum, replacement Micky Young with the put-in for Bath. The first one collapses so it'll be reset, and again it comes crashing down. This time, however, Sila Puafisi is penalised and the Gloucester prop is sent to the bin. It looks like referee Guy Garner has run out of patience.

  27. Get involved #bbcrugby

    There's 25 minutes left at Kingsholm and at the moment it looks like the West Country derby is going Bath's way.

    Can Gloucester mount a comeback? Let us know what you think by using #bbcrugby on Twitter.

  28. Replacement

    Gloucester 9-18 Bath

    Looks like Kyle Eastmond is going to take no further part. However, it won't be Sam Burgess who replaces him, but Ollie Devoto. Perhaps not all that surprising in a local derby as tight as this one.

  29. Post update

    Gloucester 9-18 Bath

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "Safe to say referee Guy Garner isn't going to be receiving any Cherry and White-themed Christmas cards this year.

    "Home players and fans alike are getting increasingly frustrated with his decisions at the scrum.

    "And as George Ford keeps his cool from the tee, the game is certainly going Bath's way at the moment."

  30. Penalty - George Ford

    Gloucester 9-18 Bath

    George Ford

    I wonder what the chat is among the Gloucester pack. One thing is for sure, it's going to be a long evening for them if they can't find a way of getting their set-piece right.

    George Ford kicks the penalty and Bath are now more than a converted try clear.

  31. Post update

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    Matt Banahan is unlucky there, stepping out of the line to put in a fine hit in Gloucester territory but frustratingly knocking on. We all know what that means! It's scrum time - and guess what? A Bath penalty.

  32. Post update

    Northampton 23-19 Leicester

    George Ford, who missed that penalty, used to play for Leicester of course. And, as you can probably imagine, Tigers director of rugby Richard Cockerill thought his side should have done better after having a one-man advantage for more than 60 minutes.

    "I'm frustrated with how we managed that second half. We got what we deserved. You have to control that field position and get that forward pack into the right areas of the field so we can have opportunities to create attacks," said Cockerill.

    "We were defensively poor. We were too narrow. It will be interesting on Monday morning when we look back and see a side with one less back creating opportunities.

    "Saints outplayed us. They took advantage of our naivety in defence. We seemed to go AWOL at times in defence."

  33. Missed penalty - George Ford

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    George Ford can't land the kick, however, and Bath's lead will stay at three points. That really was a terrific passage of play - more of the same, please!

  34. Post update

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    But Bath have turned it over, and here goes Jonathan Joseph breaking forward at pace! He has Semesa Rokoduguni for company, too, but elects not to use the winger and it breaks down. They will have a penalty though...

  35. Post update

    Northampton 23-19 Leicester

    Jim Mallinder

    While we're waiting for that first try at Kingsholm, Northampton Saints director of rugby Jim Mallinder has been giving his reaction to his side's win over Leicester and Dylan Hartley's red card.

    "At half-time Tom Wood said 'let's do it for Dylan'," said Mallinder. "It was a tremendous, spirited performance. Not just relying on spirit and guts but also a lot of technical and tactical work.

    "In terms of the red card it is disappointing. Dylan has to keep his arms down but he's being held and I don't think there is any malice in it. The nature of the game didn't justify a red card. I think Smith went down pretty easily, which was disappointing.

    "I think the referee's initial decision of a yellow card would have been the correct decision.

    "I thought Luther Burrell was outstanding. After 20 minutes we said we were still going to take them on and what we needed from Luther was to stay strong and on his feet and he did that brilliantly."

  36. Post update

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    Ross Moriarty breaks through the middle to get Gloucester moving in the right direction. They switch the ball from right to left, probing, searching for a gap. This is more like it.

  37. Kick-off

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    George Ford gets us under way. Here's hoping for a freer-flowing 40 minutes of Premiership rugby union...

  38. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    The teams are on their way out again at Kingsholm. Prediction time, folks. Let us know where you reckon this game is going on Twitter using #bbcrugby.

  39. Here's what you might've missed...

    Dylan Hartley

    I mentioned Franklin's Gardens a few moments ago - well, now seems as good a time as any to remind you what happened earlier in the Premiership.

    Northampton Saints secured a dramatic late victory over Leicester Tigers in what was a truly epic East Midlands derby. England hooker Dylan Hartley was sent off for an elbow off the ball before half-time, but the hosts scored three tries after the break to earn a famous win over their old enemy.

    Elsewhere, Saracens ran in 11 tries to trounce London Welsh 78-7, and Tim Swiel kicked Harlequins to a 15-7 victory over Newcastle Falcons.

  40. Half-time

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    Sam Burgess

    "Gloucester might be quite content to go in only six points behind, given Bath's onslaught in the last 10 minutes of the half.

    "The hosts staved off the pressure so far, but how long can they hold out against the title contenders?

    "Bath, meanwhile, may have to carry on without Kyle Eastmond, who seems to be really struggling with a leg injury.

    "If only they had a high-profile centre to replace him from the bench...."

  41. Half-time

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    Simon Devereux

    Ex-Gloucester No.8 on BBC Radio Gloucestershire

    "Gloucester started OK, although I thought it would be tight. Bath aren't going off, they're in a huddle on the pitch. They will be the happier of the two sides and not necessarily because of the scoreboard, but because they have quietened the crowd."

  42. Half-time

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    So what to make of that? It's been a 40 minutes dominated by the scrum, with six penalties being conceded at the set-piece. I only hope we're treated to a second half similar to the one at Franklin's Gardens earlier on.

  43. Penalty - George Ford

    Gloucester 9-15 Bath

    And the visiting fly-half again makes no mistake, sending the kick over with ease and putting Bath six points ahead on the stroke of half-time.

  44. Post update

    Gloucester 9-12 Bath

    I suspect the Bath backline have been twiddling their thumbs a bit so far - but now they're able to get their hands on the ball. First Matt Banahan makes some ground, and then a terrific offload from Jonathan Joseph as Bath swing it from one side of the pitch to the other. Gloucester offend at the breakdown, and another kickable chance for George Ford.

  45. Post update

    Gloucester 9-12 Bath

    Simon Devereux

    Ex-Gloucester No.8 on BBC Radio Gloucestershire

    "If there was any debate on Greig Laidlaw's range then that's ended it. That must have shaved the paint off the crossbar, but over it goes."

  46. Penalty - Greig Laidlaw

    Gloucester 9-12 Bath

    Greig Laidlaw

    And, it must be said, it's a fabulous kick from almost the halfway line. Greig Laidlaw reduces the deficit to three points.

  47. Post update

    Gloucester 6-12 Bath

    The ball is so, so close to coming out at last, but this time Paul James is adjudged to have brought the scrum tumbling down and it's a penalty for Gloucester. Greig Laidlaw's turn...

  48. Post update

    Gloucester 6-12 Bath

    Full-back Stephen McColl kicks high and long for Gloucester but, as George Ford tries to pluck it out of the air, he can only send it bouncing forward. Another scrum, another reset, and so it goes on...

  49. Post update

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "It's a little bit restless among the Gloucester fans now. The Cherry and Whites made a great start and came out with intent, but that wonderful little boot of George Ford is punishing every mistake. It's tense here, to say the least."

  50. Missed penalty - Billy Twelvetrees

    Gloucester 6-12 Bath

    From the restart, it's a knock on and so another scrum. The referee has a long conversation with a couple of the Gloucester props before the two teams get down to it. Can we complete one of these set-pieces at long last?

    No! It seems to be the home side's turn to get a penalty - the fifth to come from scrum time inside the opening 30 minutes. Billy Twelvetrees it is, but the England centre can't land it.

  51. Penalty - George Ford

    Gloucester 6-12 Bath

    Goodness me, another scrum goes down and Bath have a penalty. George Ford makes no mistake and, despite not exactly tearing up any trees in open play, the visitors suddenly find themselves six points ahead.

  52. Post update

    Gloucester 6-9 Bath

    This has been scrappy. Bath win a line-out inside opposition territory but captain Stuart Hooper offends as the ball comes in and the chance peters out.

  53. Penalty - George Ford

    Gloucester 6-9 Bath

    George Ford continues his 100% record from the tee and the away side lead. It's fair to say this match hasn't yet quite lived up to the heights achieved by our East Midlands derby earlier on.

    Much of that seems to be down to the set-piece - I'm not sure we've actually seen the ball come out of a scrum yet.

  54. Post update

    Gloucester 6-6 Bath

    It looks like Bath may be about to break the cycle here, winning another penalty at the scrum and George Ford this time has an opportunity to put his side ahead for the first time in the match...

  55. Penalty - George Ford

    Gloucester 6-6 Bath

    This has fast become the Laidlaw-Ford show. Gloucester go in at the side of a ruck, Bath win the penalty, and George Ford splits the sticks from long range. A fine kick has us all square once more.

  56. Penalty - Greig Laidlaw

    Gloucester 6-3 Bath

    Much more straightforward than his last attempt, this time Greig Laidlaw's kick is good. Gloucester are back in front.

  57. Post update

    Gloucester 3-3 Bath

    Taxi for George Ford! Bath recycle the ball after a ruck but Ford seems to be thinking about kicking the ball before he's even caught it and ends up fumbling. Scrum for Gloucester inside the visitors' half and, after an initial reset, the hosts have won a further penalty.

  58. Missed penalty - Greig Laidlaw

    Gloucester 3-3 Bath

    Gloucester end up winning another penalty, though, just a couple of metres inside Bath's half. Now, what's the Scot's range like tonight? By the looks of things, it doesn't stretch quite that far, and his kick is comfortably short of the posts.

  59. Post update

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "An enthralling period of sustained pressure from the Gloucester attack comes to an end when James Hook puts a tame drop-goal attempt well wide of the post. The home fans groan, while the away fans breath a sigh of relief."

  60. Get involved #bbcrugby

    John McEnerney: James Hook will be the key man for Gloucester. One of classiest backs in the game. His time in Top 14 have made him a better player.

  61. Post update

    Gloucester 3-3 Bath

    At last, on the 29th phase, James Hook loses patience and tries to land a drop goal - but it drifts well wide. A really fascinating period of play, as Bath's defence holds strong and they do enough to force the home side back.

  62. Post update

    Gloucester 3-3 Bath

    The Cherry and Whites are piling forward, again forcing Bath back towards their own line. Wales prop Richard Hibbard is involved a couple of times, never a man you'd particularly like to see running at you. Gloucester into their 23rd phase...

  63. Penalty - George Ford

    Gloucester 3-3 Bath

    It's another good kick and Bath are back on level terms. Unsurprisingly, you could almost hear a pin drop as the ball sailed between the sticks.

  64. Post update

    Gloucester 3-0 Bath

    A decent riposte from Bath though. A good kick from little George Ford eventually ends up putting Gloucester under a wee bit of pressure and they give away a penalty at the breakdown. Now it'll be the England international's turn to have a pop at goal...

  65. Post update

    Gloucester 3-0 Bath

    It's a ferocious start from the hosts, who have Bath back-pedalling after a clever box kick from Greig Laidlaw. As it happens, the boys in blue, black and white can only shepherd it out and we'll have the first scrum of the evening - five metres from the away side's try line.

  66. Penalty - Greig Laidlaw

    Gloucester 3-0 Bath

    And it's pretty straightforward for Scotland scrum-half Greig Laidlaw, who splits the posts with relative ease. An ideal start for Gloucester.

  67. Kick-off

    Cherry and Whites fly-half James Hook gets us under way and, within the opening 60 seconds, the home side have a penalty after a Bath player fails to roll away after a tackle.

  68. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "Cracking atmosphere here. The cries of 'Gloucester' echo all around. And there's more Santas here than on a Christmas weekend in Lapland. Have they not got more important things to be getting on with?"

  69. Here come the teams...

    Goodness me, have you caught your breath yet? The two sides are out at Kingsholm and we're all set for Gloucester v Bath.

  70. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "Earlier this week, the local West Country papers produced lists of why it's better to be a Gloucester or Bath fan.

    "'We've won more trophies than you,' claimed the boys in blue, black and white.

    "'We've got a better chant,' say the ones who shout Glaaaaawwwster at the top of their lungs.

    "Whichever side you're on, these West Country derbies are the most anticipated games in the Premiership calendar. And, if it's half as tasty as the battle in the East Midlands, we're in for a good time."

  71. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Phew, that was quite an East Midlands derby, wasn't it? But the West Country version is now only minutes away.

    What can we expect from that one? Let us know, using #bbcrugby on Twitter.

  72. Line-ups

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Gloucester: McColl; Sharples, Purdy, Twelvetrees (capt), May; Hook, Laidlaw; Thomas, Hibbard, Afoa; Savage, Palmer; Kalamafoni, Kvesic, Moriarty.

    Replacements: Dawidiuk, Wood, Puafisi, Hudson, Stooke, Robson, Atkinson, Halaifonua.

    Bath: Watson; Rokoduguni, Joseph, Eastmond, Banahan; Ford, Cook; James, Batty, Wilson; Hooper (capt), Day; Fa'osiliva, Louw, Houston.

    Replacements: Webber, Auterac, Thomas, Garvey, Fearns, Young, Devoto, Burgess.

  73. Team news

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Sam Burgess and Kyle Eastmond

    Having made his first start for Bath against Montpellier last week, Sam Burgess is replaced by fellow cross-coder Kyle Eastmond in the centres for the trip to Kingsholm.

    Captain Stuart Hooper is also brought back into the second row.

    Gloucester have recalled internationals Sione Kalamafoni, Greig Laidlaw and Tom Palmer.

    But Gareth Evans and England number eight Ben Morgan both miss out through injury.

  74. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Jeremy Guscott

    Former Bath & England centre

    "I look at the Bath side at the moment and they have a powerful set of forwards and a skilful, speedy, try-scoring backline, and when you have that at your disposal you have to think you are going to win games."

    You can read Jeremy's BBC Sport column on Premiership derby day by clicking here.

  75. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Jeremy Guscott

    Former Bath & England centre

    "Gloucester are a dangerous side, especially when you look at their backline and they have players like Greig Laidlaw, James Hook, Billy Twelvetrees and Charlie Sharples.

    "The lift for them will be playing at home against Bath. The fear of losing at home against one of your biggest rivals does not bear thinking about."

    You can read Jeremy's BBC Sport column on Premiership derby day by clicking here.

  76. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Gloucester v Bath

    One rip-roaring local derby down, one to go.

    Last time Gloucester and Bath locked horns, two players were red carded and a further five sent to the sin bin in a fiery encounter which saw the men in blue, black and white come out on top by just a single point.

    More of the same today? We could be in for a busy couple of hours.

    Kick-off at Kingsholm is fast approaching at 17:30 GMT.

  77. Full time

    Northampton 23-19 Leicester

    Chris Osborne

    BBC Sport at Franklin's Gardens

    "Remarkable. Stunning. Saints fans are embracing each other after the most unlikeliest of wins. Tigers players stand around bewildered."

  78. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Cllr John Potter: What a game of rugby this East Mids derby has been!!! Awesome stuff by the Saints #bbcrugby

  79. Full time

    Northampton 23-19 Leicester

    So Northampton's win takes them six points clear at the top of the Premiership table for now, although Bath can, of course, close that gap if they win at Kingsholm.

    Leicester claim a losing bonus point but remain in sixth place.

  80. Full time

    Northampton 23-19 Leicester

    Northampton celebrate

    Indeed they have! Saints protect the ball as if their lives depend on it to run down the clock and after the Franklin's Gardens crowd count down the closing seconds, the ball is thumped into the stands and JP Doyle blows the final whistle.

  81. Try

    Northampton 23-19 Leicester (Jamie Elliott, con Stephen Myler)

    Oh yes we do! You really have to give this Northampton side credit, they just will not give up. Luther Burrell makes yards when he has no right to and Saints get the ball wide to Jamie Elliott, who slides over in the same corner that Tom Wood scored the winner in when Saints beat Tigers in May's Premiership semi-final. Stephen Myler nails the conversion from the touchline and Saints have surely won this.

  82. Post update

    Northampton 16-19 Leicester

    Maybe we are as Northampton are awarded a penalty deep inside the Leicester 22 after Geoff Parling is penalised for not releasing after making a tackle. Stephen Myler kicks for the corner and Saints have a line-out five metres out.

  83. Post update

    Northampton 16-19 Leicester

    Five minutes to go and Northampton have a line-out on the Tigers 22. Are we in for more late drama at the Gardens?

  84. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Graeme Hobbs: This game is being played wide open, could go either way, what a last ten minutes it is going to be #AvivaPrem #NORvTIG #bbcrugby

  85. Try

    Northampton 16-19 Leicester (Niki Goneva, con Freddie Burns)

    Take a bow Miles Benjamin. Niki Goneva scores the try but this is all about the former Worcester winger. Benjamin breezes past three tackles before being brought down by Ken Pisi five metres from the line. There's no time for Saints to get into any kind of defensive shape and Leicester spin the ball wide to give Goneva the simplest of scores. Freddie Burns adds the extras and Tigers lead by three.

  86. Full time

    Harlequins 15-7 Newcastle

    Tim Swiel

    Inconsistent Harlequins have wrestled their way to a hard-fought victory over Newcastle Falcons at The Stoop. South African Tim Swiel kicked all of his side's points as they completed a 15-7 win.

  87. Get involved #bbcrugby

    John McEnerney: #bbcrugby what a last 15 mins we have in store! Bodies on the line time for both sides!! Savage defending will the order of the day.

  88. Try

    Northampton 16-12 Leicester (Ben Foden)

    Ben Foden

    What a reply from Northampton's backline! Superb hands from Stephen Myler sends Ben Foden, back on again for James Wilson, racing clear from 35 metres or more out. He has George North in support but doesn't need him as he dummies his way past Mathew Tait to dive over in the corner. But's it's not proving a day for the kickers as Myler's conversion attempt this time goes across the face of the posts and wide.

  89. Full-time

    Saracens 78-7 London Welsh

    Chris Ashton

    And that's a wrap for Saracens. Scrum-half Richard Wigglesworth, on as a second-half replacement, has grabbed his hat-trick and given Saracens a resounding 78-7 win over poor old London Welsh.

  90. Try

    Northampton 11-12 Leicester (Niki Goneva)

    It's the first time Leicester have been in the Northampton 22 for ages and they certainly make it count. Replacement back Freddie Burns makes the crucial break and, after the ball is recycled, Owen Williams spins it out to winger Niki Goneva, who has little trouble crossing the line. Williams' conversion attempt is wayward but it's the Tigers who have the lead.

  91. Post update

    Northampton 11-7 Leicester

    What a hit by Samu Manoa! The Northampton number eight times his tackle perfectly on Julian Salvi and lays out the Leicester back-rower. That would have any retired forward drooling!

  92. Post update

    Chris Osborne

    BBC Sport at Franklin's Gardens

    "The crowd are getting edgier and edgier after every decision from the referee. Leicester boss Richard Cockerill is sat a few seats to my left and is unusually calm and quiet. Give it a few minutes though."

  93. Around the grounds

    Reckon Saracens have got this game wrapped up yet? Another two tries, one for Ben Ransom and a second for Richard Wigglesworth, has put them 71-7 up on London Welsh, who have had to endure another horrible afternoon in the top flight.

    Harlequins, meanwhile, have stretched their lead to 15-7 with a further two penalties from Tim Swiel.

  94. Missed penalty

    Northampton 11-7 Leicester

    Fly-half Stephen Myler is back on after picking up a knock in the build-up to Alex Waller's try. It's a tough kick, five metres in from the touchline and, like James Wilson's earlier conversion effort, goes just the wrong side of the posts.

  95. Post update

    Northampton 11-7 Leicester

    Saints look dangerous every time they have ball in hand. George North races at the Leicester defence but Mathew Tait produces a brilliant tackle to stop the Wales winger, who knocks on and Tigers have a scrum. Replacement Gareth Denman has an instant impact as Saints drive the visitors backwards and Northampton have a penalty just outside the 22.

  96. Around the grounds

    Replacements Richard Barrington and Richard Wigglesworth have now got themselves in on the act, both crossing for Saracens as last year's losing finalists go about improving their points difference in spectacular fashion.

    They lead 57-7 against London Welsh, while Harlequins have gone 9-7 ahead against Newcastle thanks to a pair of penalties from fly-half Tim Swiel.

  97. Try

    Northampton 11-7 Leicester (Alex Waller)

    Alex Waller

    Brilliant from Northampton. After winning their line-out, Saints move the ball right and stretch the Leicester defence before bringing it back across the field. It arrives in the hands of prop Alex Waller who, calm as you like, dummies his marker to slide over the line. Stephen Myler is injured in the move that led to the try and is replaced by Ben Foden. James Wilson takes over kicking duties but puts his conversion attempt from the touchline just wide.

  98. Replacement

    Northampton 6-7 Leicester

    That's the end of the afternoon for Tigers and England hooker Tom Youngs, who is withdrawn and replaced with Italy international Leonardo Ghiraldini. Noy surprising given Youngs is only just back from injury.

  99. Post update

    Northampton 6-7 Leicester

    Northampton scrum-half Kahn Fotuali'i kicks smartly and finds touch inside the Leicester 22. Tigers make a real mess of the line-out and Saints have the ball. Just when it looks like the home side might cross the whitewash, Tigers slow the ball down and turn it over, allowing Ben Youngs to clear.

  100. Kick-off

    Northampton 6-7 Leicester

    The teams are back out, and Stephen Myler gets us back under way. You feel we've got quite a second half ahead of us.

  101. Around the grounds

    And it's a sixth try of the afternoon for Saracens, who are now 45-7 to the good against London Welsh. This time it's Jackson Wray's turn to touch down, while Owen Farrell adds the extras. Not missed a conversion yet, has Farrell.

    Harlequins trailing by three points at home to Newcastle Falcons.

  102. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm

    "The press room at Kingsholm is packed with people crowding round the TV to watch the shenanigans going on at Franklin's Gardens. And there's been a big debate surrounding Hartley's red card.

    "Gloucester director of rugby David Humphries even popped his head round the door to get the lowdown, and quizzed members of the RFU sat near by about their thoughts on the matter.

    "I imagine he's hoping there won't be a similar discussion during his side's game against Bath later on."

  103. Post update

    Don't forget, we've got the West Country derby between Gloucester and Bath coming up after we've finished at Franklin's Gardens.

    And you can listen to online commentary of all four of this afternoon's Premiership games by clicking on the 'live coverage' tab.

  104. Half-time

    Northampton 6-7 Leicester

    Chris Osborne

    BBC Sport at Franklin's Gardens

    "There may have been some rugby played in that first half. But it was mainly a car crash of elbows, high tackles and scrappy scrums.

    "The home crowd were baying for Tom Croft to go just before the whistle - and his yellow card means the first 10 minutes after the break are pivotal."

  105. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Barry rhodes: #bbcrugby I hope Hartley gets a decent length ban, everything he does well is wiped out by his cynical play #notacaptain

    Tom Jenkinson: Regardless of whether you agree with the decision, this has set up a Christmas cracker of a derby. #bbcrugby

    Tom Holmes: Hartley's red ruining an otherwise good first half for Saints. Big 10 minutes at the start of the second coming up with 14 v 14 #bbcrugby

    No surprises that most of the chat has so far been about Dylan Hartley, but where do we think this match is headed? Saints only a point behind at the break...

  106. Kick-off

    We're under way again in our two 15:00 GMT kick-offs. To remind you, Newcastle are 7-3 ahead against Harlequins at The Stoop and Saracens are 38-7 up on bottom-side London Welsh at Allianz Park.

    Mark McCall's side bagged the quickest bonus point of the season so far in that first half against the Exiles, scoring four tries inside the opening 31 minutes.

  107. Half-time

    Northampton 6-7 Leicester

    That is indeed the last action of the opening 40 minutes as JP Doyle's whistle brings the half to a close. It's a one-point game and one Saints are very much still in. Remember, they trailed May's Premiership semi-final 17-6 at the break and came back to win despite having Salesi Ma'afu sent off.

  108. Penalty

    Northampton 6-7 Leicester (Stephen Myler)

    With only seconds left in the half, fly-half Stephen Myler goes for goal and makes no mistake as his penalty kick sails between the posts.

  109. Sin-bin - Tom Croft

    Northampton 3-7 Leicester

    Tigers make a right mess of their line-out and Northampton break quickly through Ken Pisi. He's brought crashing down and loses the ball in contact just inside the Leicester 10-metre line. JP Doyle goes to the TMO to check the tackle and rules that Tom Croft was high. It's the second high tackle of the half by Leicester so Croft is sent to the bin and Saints have a penalty. For 10 minutes at least, it's 14-a-side.

  110. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath (17:30 GMT)

    Caroline Chapman

    BBC Sport at Kingsholm


    "Already a chilly one here in Gloucester. Couple of Santas knocking about outside the ground. Bit early, I'd say."

  111. Post update

    Northampton 3-7 Leicester

    Northampton are penalised yet again at the scrum as they get up while back-pedalling. Owen Williams kicks long into touch and Leicester have good field position deep inside the Saints' half.

  112. Post update

    Northampton 3-7 Leicester

    Northampton pile on the pressure from the line-out and go through the phases as they go for the line. Luther Burrell runs a fabulous straight line but just when Saints look like they're destined to score, they knock-on twice and Leicester are able to clear after being awarded a penalty following another failed scrum.

  113. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Dylan Hartley

    James Hand: Great to see Dylan Hartley really has turned a corner. Just a shame it was elbow-first. Into someone's face #nothingchanges #bbcrugby

    Dan Eastment: What's Dylan Hartley's favourite band? Elbow #bbcrugby

    Ben Bradford: Just demonstrates why Lancaster would not trust Hartley with England captaincy when he was a candidate. Loose cannon #bbcrugby

  114. Post update

    Northampton 3-7 Leicester

    What a run from George North, as he races half the length of the pitch to take Saints to the edge of the Leicester 22. Northampton spin the ball to the right and Courtney Lawes goes for the line before being stopped five metres short. They come inside again and are rewarded with a penalty when Graham Kitchener enters a ruck from the side. Rather than go for goal, Stephen Myler kicks for the corner.

  115. Around the grounds

    And a try at The Stoop at long last! Alesana Tuilagi crosses and, after a lengthy deliberation by the television match official, Newcastle are able to take a 7-3 lead over Harlequins into the interval.

  116. Penalty

    Northampton 3-7 Leicester (Stephen Myler)

    Northampton may be down to 14 men but they won't give up easily and are awarded a penalty for a high tackle by Geoff Parling. Stephen Myler slots it through the posts from about 40 metres out and in doing so becomes the record points scorer at Franklin's Gardens. He has scored 601, one more than former Saints and England fly-half Paul Grayson.

  117. Around the grounds

    A couple more tries at Allianz Park to tell you about - although London Welsh have this time managed to grab one of them. Chris Ashton scores Saracens' fifth, before Elliott Kear crosses to make it 38-7 at half-time.

    It's still 3-0 to Harlequins against Newcastle.

  118. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Andy Donley: Dylan Hartley is such a frustrating player - top, top drawer hooker, but he's ridiculously ill-disciplined. Liability. #bbcrugby #Saints

    Andrew Priestley: Correct decision from the TMO, and great credit should go to referee JP Doyle for taking the advice of his TMO. Hartley had to go. #bbcrugby

  119. Try

    Northampton 0-7 Leicester (Penalty, con Owen Williams)

    We have three scrums in a row and Tigers are clearly dominating at the set-piece. It goes down again and referee JP Doyle clearly thinks Northampton are at fault and awards a penalty try. Owen Williams added the simplest of conversions.

  120. Replacement

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    With Northampton now without a hooker, centre Tom Stephenson has to make way for replacement hooker Mike Haywood. We'll get back under way with a scrum.

  121. Around the grounds

    Saracens have their bonus point after 33 minutes, Mano Vunipola grabbing his second try of the match to put his team 31-0 up.

    Not quite so one-sided between Harlequins and Newcastle, however, where Quins are still edging it 3-0.

  122. Red card - Dylan Hartley

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    Dylan Hartley

    Oh dear, oh dear Dylan Hartley. What have you done? The replays show that the Northampton and England hooker has thrown an elbow into the face of Leicester centre Matt Smith, who crashes to the floor. Hartley was being held, but you just can't do that. Referee JP Doyle brandishes the red card and, just like the 2013 Premiership final between these sides, Hartley is sent off.

  123. Post update

    Chris Osborne

    BBC Sport at Franklin's Gardens

    "I was about to say it was a quiet start, until that mass brawl broke out in front of us.

    "Salesi Ma'afu laid out Tom Youngs with a punch last time the teams met remember. And there is a sense that this is very close to becoming a fight rather than a rugby match."

  124. Post update

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    These East Midlands derbies are always feisty affairs and there's an altercation between a number of players from both sides as Leicester turn the ball over at the ruck just inside the Saints' half. Tigers move the ball well and are stopped near the line. But more fighting breaks out and referee JP Doyle goes upstairs to the Television Match Official to find out just what has gone on.

  125. Missed penalty

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    That's a big push from Leicester at the scrum! It goes down and referee JP Doyle hands the Tigers a penalty. It's a difficult one, on the Saints' 10-metre line and five metres in from touch. Owen Williams strikes it well enough but it's off target and drifts to the left of the posts. We await our first points.

  126. Post update

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    Play swings this way and that as both sides kick for territory. But Tigers scrum-half Ben Youngs puts a lovely little chip into touch inside the Northampton 22 and there will be some pressure on this line-out. Courtney Lawes rises highest to claim the ball and Saints are then awarded a free-kick to eliminate any immediate threat of danger.

  127. Around the grounds

    Saracens have been absolutely rampant in the opening 20 minutes against London Welsh and lead 24-0, with Brett Sharman and George Kruis adding to Mako Vunipola's earlier try. They could have a bonus point wrapped up before half-time at this rate.

    At The Stoop, Newcastle Falcons are pressing against Harlequins but still trail 3-0.

  128. Post update

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    It all goes wrong for Saints at the scrum and Ben Youngs is able to clear for the visitors. Tigers flanker Tom Croft then steals the ball at the Northampton line-out and all of a sudden we're in the Northampton 22. Leicester's pressure is short-lived, though, as a penalty allows Stephen Myler to take play back into the Tigers half.

  129. Post update

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    A quick tap penalty in midfield has Northampton racing forward and only a brilliant tackle from Owen Williams prevents George North from scoring. Tigers turn the ball over at the ruck but knock-on in the process and Saints will have a scrum five metres out.

  130. Post update

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    Leicester have the first line-out of the game just inside the Saints' half but they are penalised for obstruction and Northampton have the penalty and the chance to kick for territory. But Stephen Myler misses touch with his kick and Tigers have the chance to clear their lines.

  131. Around the grounds

    Quins are 3-0 ahead against Newcastle at The Stoop thanks to an early penalty from Tim Swiel.

    Saracens, meanwhile, are now 10-0 up on bottom-side London Welsh after a kick from England fly-half Owen Farrell. Sounds like a fairly ominous start for Justin Burnell's side.

  132. Kick-off

    Northampton 0-0 Leicester

    Like last May's Premiership final, JP Doyle is our referee. He blows his whistle and Leicester's Owen Williams gets us under way.

  133. Post update

    Northampton v Leicester (15:15 GMT)

    Jeremy Guscott

    Former Bath & England centre

    "You look at the Northampton pack and it is humongous. And the quality that it has is difficult to match for any side - that is why they are the best team in the Premiership and are the current champions.

    "They are going well and just have that extra sprinkle of stardust at the moment, so I expect them to win."

    You can read Jeremy's BBC Sport column on Premiership derby day by clicking here.

  134. Try

    Saracens 7-0 London Welsh (M Vunipola, con Farrell)

    Saracens have the lead at Allianz Park as prop Mako Vunipola scores after a dominant driving maul from the hosts and Owen Farrell makes no mistake with the conversion.

  135. Line-ups

    Northampton v Leicester (15:15 GMT)

    Northampton Saints: Wilson; K. Pisi, Stephenson, Burrell, North; Myler, Fotuali'i; A Waller, Hartley (capt), Ma'afu; Lawes, Day; Clark, Wood, Manoa.

    Replacements: Haywood, E. Waller, Denman, Dickinson, Dowson, Dickson, Elliott, Foden.

    Leicester Tigers: Tait; Scully, Smith, Allen, Goneva; Williams, B Youngs (capt); Ayerz, T Youngs, Cole, Kitchener, Parling; Croft, Salvi, Crane.

    Replacements: Ghiraldini, Rizzo, Balmain, De Chaves, Barbieri, Harrison, Burns, Benjamin.

  136. Team news

    Northampton v Leicester (15:15 GMT)

    Luther Burrell

    England centre Luther Burrell returns to a Northampton side, which also sees Alex Waller, Christian Day and Samu Manoa come into the pack.

    England hooker Tom Youngs and flanker Tom Croft are back for Leicester Tigers.

    Youngs makes his second Premiership start since September after recovering from a shoulder injury, while Croft starts for just the second time this season after struggling with a knee injury.

    Graham Kitchener moves into the pack to replace dual-code international Brad Thorn (calf), while Marcos Ayerza will make his 200th Tigers appearance.

  137. Kick-off

    Our two 15:00 GMT kick-offs between Harlequins and Newcastle, and Saracens and London Welsh, are now both under way.

    We'll keep you posted with what's going on in those matches as the afternoon goes on.

  138. Post update

    Chris Osborne

    BBC Sport at Franklin's Gardens

    Leicester Tigers

    "Not long now. Saints and Tigers go through their warm-ups on a bitingly cold day. It's an afternoon for wearing fingerless gloves, something which I'll be asking Santa to get me this year."

  139. Tigers on a roll

    Northampton v Leicester (15:15 GMT)

    Richard Cockerill

    Leicester might have endured a difficult start to the Premiership campaign, losing three successive games in September and October.

    But they will step out at Franklin's Gardens on the back of four games unbeaten in the league and having beaten European champions Toulon at Welford Road in the Champions Cup.

    "We are one loss from seven games and played a very good Toulon side back-to-back and beat them once," Tigers boss Richard Cockerill told BBC Radio Leicester.

    "We know we have played with a huge intensity and physicality the last couple of weeks and we have to take that to Franklin's Gardens, then take it to Sale, then Bath at home and Harlequins away."

  140. Saints out to overhaul Tigers

    Northampton v Leicester (15:15 GMT)

    Ben Foden

    Northampton may have won that last meeting but it's Leicester who have dominated this fixture.

    It was Saints' first victory in 11 attempts against their East Midlands rivals, with Northampton going on to beat Saracens to win the Premiership title for the first time.

    But Tigers have eight titles to their name and Saints full-back Ben Foden says his side are desperate to get the upper hand.

    "We've always been second fiddle," he told BBC Radio Northampton. "This squad of players and this club are at the point where we want to compete with them and hopefully take that title away from them.

    "We did that by beating them in a semi-final last year and then winning the Premiership, but we need to back it up with another big performance."

  141. Listen to live commentary

    We've got live online commentary of all four of this afternoon's games for you by clicking on the 'live coverage' tab.

    Unfortunately, the Harlequins v Newcastle and Saracens v London Welsh games are only available on desktop, but the two derbies are available on desktop, mobile and tablet.

  142. Get involved #bbcrugby

    Andrew Priestley: The fierce local derbies in and around the festive period are what makes English, Scottish, Welsh and Irish rugby truly great. #bbcrugby

  143. Last time they met

    Northampton v Leicester (15:15 GMT)

    Northampton joy

    Ah yes, Chris. That certainly was an encounter to remember as Tom Wood's dramatic late try put Northampton into the Premiership final as 14-man Saints fought back to beat Leicester 21-20.

    Manu Tuilagi crossed first for Tigers and, even though Niki Goneva was sin-binned, Ben Youngs added a second before the break as Leicester led 17-6.

    Salesi Ma'afu's red card for punching Tom Youngs meant Saints had to play the final 25 minutes with 14 men.

    But George North got them back in it before Wood touched down in the corner to send Saints to Twickenham.

  144. Post update

    Chris Osborne

    BBC Sport at Franklin's Gardens

    "The last time Saints and Tigers stepped out at Franklin's Gardens, it was nothing short of one of the best Premiership matches ever.

    "Northampton's late, late win in that semi-final in May was a stepping stone to their status as the side to beat in English rugby - and nobody has done that more often over the past decade than Leicester.

    "There is a sense of anticipation at the Gardens that fireworks and drama are a given, rather than a possibility."

  145. Line-ups

    Saracens v London Welsh (15:00 GMT)

    Saracens: Ransom; Ashton, Bosch, Taylor, Wyles; Farrell, de Kock; Vunipola, Sharman, Johnston, Kruis, Hamilton, Wray, Brown, Joubert (capt).

    Replacements: George, Barrington, du Plessis, Botha, Vunipola, Wigglesworth, Hodgson, Tompkins.

    London Welsh: Robinson; Stegmann, Reynolds, Barkley, Kear; Weepu, Lewis; Reeves, Britton, Vea, Browne, Down, McCaffrey, Kirwan (capt), Fonua.

    Replacements: Morris, Trevett, Cooper, Schofield, Pienaar, Rowley, May, Scott.

  146. Line-ups

    Harlequins v Newcastle (15:00 GMT)

    Harlequins: Brown; Yarde, Hopper, Lowe, Tikoirotuma; Swiel, Dickson; Lambert, Gray, Sinckler, Matthews, Robson (capt), Trayfoot, Clifford, J Chisholm.

    Replacements: Ward, Marfo, Collier, Twomey, Merrick, Care, R Chisholm, Monye.

    Newcastle: Hammersley; Sinoti, Powell, Socino, Alesana Tuilagi; Catterick, Blair; Vickers, McGuigan, S Wilson, Green, Barrow, M Wilson, Welch (capt), Hogg.

    Replacements: Lawson, Fry, Irving, Thompson, Furno, Tipuna, Anitelea Tuilagi, Cato.

  147. Cipriani inspires Sale to win over Exeter

    Danny Cipriani

    Before we worry about today's action, let's take a quick look back at last night's because there's quite a battle hotting up for the four Premiership play-off places after Danny Cipriani inspired Sale to an 18-11 win over Exeter.

    Fly-half Cipriani, watched by England head coach Stuart Lancaster, scored a try and kicked a conversion and two penalties as the Chiefs' eight-match winning run came to an end.

    The victory lifted Sale to fourth in the table, while defeat meant third-placed Exeter missed the chance to go top.

    Only nine points separate Sale and ninth-placed Harlequins going into the rest of this weekend's round of fixtures, with the Sharks having played a game more than their rivals.

  148. Post update

    Chris Osborne

    BBC Sport at Franklin's Gardens

    Leicester players at Franklin's Gardens

    "Leicester Tigers pile into Franklin's Gardens, looking relaxed. Possibly trying not to dwell on their last visit to these parts which, unusually, was an unhappy trip."

  149. Get involved #bbcrugby

    It promises to be an afternoon of red-hot action on the pitch, with big hits and passion aplenty.

    But we want to know what you make of it.

    Whether you're doing a bit of last-minute Christmas shopping or relaxing in front of the fire at home, get in touch on Twitter using #bbcrugby

  150. Post update

    But they aren't the only two Premiership games this afternoon.

    Ninth meets 10th at The Stoop as inconsistent Harlequins face former director of rugby Dean Richards' Newcastle Falcons side.

    And at Allianz Park, bottom club London Welsh face an almighty task if they are to register their first win of the season against Saracens.

    We'll keep you up-to-date with both 15:00 GMT kick-offs.

  151. Post update

    Those are the words of former Bath and England centre Jeremy Guscott from his experiences of playing against West Country rivals Gloucester.

    The Shed will no doubt be in full voice later when the two sides meet for the first time this season at Kingsholm (17:30 GMT) in what promises to be a Christmas cracker.

    But we have quite an aperitif for you on this winter's afternoon as reigning champions and current Premiership leaders Northampton meet East Midlands rivals Leicester in a fixture where there is never any love lost.

    Kick-off at Franklin's Gardens is at 15:15 GMT.

  152. Post update

    Gloucester v Bath

    "I have always relished local derbies and to me they were like internationals. The atmosphere was buzzing and you could not help but be high from it. I fed off the rivalry.

    "When you are the away side in a local derby, you know you are in the enemy camp - because, in the sporting sense, you are the enemy. There is respect, of course, but if you are not used to it, it can be fairly uncomfortable."